A Pictorial: St. Andrews!!! (18th Hole Discussion Now In Session)

[Jason Topp]

Yet, I believe we still do not fully understand or perhaps appreciate the quality of hazards. I would maybe put that at the feet of some of the Golden Age.

Melvyn   

Melvyn - wonderful full quote but I am particularly interested in this line.  What part of our failure to understand hazards can be attributed to some of the golden age.

[Anthony Gray]

  The tee ball at the first is one of the few things in life that never gets jaded with time. I have played TOC more times than I deserve and that tee shot is always a thrill. I always gaze at the tribute to Old Tom on the R&A before teeing. Stil don't know why but it will always be speciel. There is no tee box in the world that gives you such a unique feeling as TOC.

  Anthony

[Chris DeNigris]

I'm in what's probably (I hope) a pretty select group who've "Finched" the 1st.  My screamer bounced off a building, jumped over the parked cars and back onto the 18th. Somehow made a 4. 

Can't describe the kind of embarassment that comes with hitting that kind of shot on that tee, on that hole on that course. It was unfortunately around 11:30 on a Saturday and a few tour buses had just dropped off their cattle. There is no place to hide and you are standing there in the middle of town, holding a defective golf club, totally naked. What an amazing place!

[Mark Pearce]

I'm in what's probably (I hope) a pretty select group who've "Finched" the 1st.  My screamer bounced off a building, jumped over the parked cars and back onto the 18th. Somehow made a 4. 

Can't describe the kind of embarassment that comes with hitting that kind of shot on that tee, on that hole on that course. It was unfortunately around 11:30 on a Saturday and a few tour buses had just dropped off their cattle. There is no place to hide and you are standing there in the middle of town, holding a defective golf club, totally naked. What an amazing place!

Chris,

Great story, which reminds me of when I played TOC.  On 18, for some reason I still don't understand) I took about 4 clubs too much for my second shot and flew it into the car park behind the green (this was before the new shop and pedestrian area had been built behind the 18th green).  My ball bounced on the bonnet (hood) of a car and flew into the air, before coming to rest 30 feet from the flag, leaving a straightforward 2-putt for par.

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole # 2 Schematic:
http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_guide2004/old_course_hole_guide_2.html

The second tee  shot offers more visibility of the task at hand than most of the drives to come. I found it hard not to get ahead of myself and think about the 17th playing in the opposite direction.

Wind a strong tailwind, I managed to get very close to the green but a bit right of the short grass. This angle does open up the green, with a clear view past the hillocks on the left side.

Sadly, I was unable to hack my approach past the last mound. It wasn’t until I was almost on top of my ball that I realized it was on the putting surface. From here, I was very happy to sink my second putt (a heavily breaking 8 footer) after poorly judging my 1st attempt.

Looking across the 2nd/16th green from the right side (standing on the 3rd tee), one has a clearer picture of the contours with which they’ve just contended.


Overall, I found that the 2nd incorporates several strategic themes that repeat through most of the outward holes. A weakness perhaps?

Discuss!

[Scott Warren]

This could become one of the great threads, Kyle. Wonderful pics of the course. Mine were mostly very average, so I'm stoked to see some great ones. Do you mind me downloading and keeping them for my own reference?

[Kyle Henderson]

This could become one of the great threads, Kyle. Wonderful pics of the course. Mine were mostly very average, so I'm stoked to see some great ones. Do you mind me downloading and keeping them for my own reference?

Help yourself, amigo. Personal use is allowed and encouraged.  I took my best photos of the inward holes when the sun was behind me. Stay tuned. Same Bat Thread.

[Scott Warren]

Is it just me, or is the punishment for going left stronger at the 2nd than on any other hole from 2-6?

I went left at the 2nd off the tee and it seemed there is no way to get the ball to the pin from the left through skill alone, it's the luck of what the swales do. If I were faced with the same shot again (I had 160-odd to the centre of the green from just short of Cheape's bunker), I'd play for short right of the green and count on getting up and down.

I thought the other holes in that stretch were not as imposing from the left, the caveat being that 2 was the only hole of the five I drove left on, so the others it was just from what I saw, not what I had to play.

Am I completely mistaken?

[Kyle Henderson]

Is it just me, or is the punishment for going left stronger at the 2nd than on any other hole from 2-6?

I went left at the 2nd off the tee and it seemed there is no way to get the ball to the pin from the left through skill alone, it's the luck of what the swales do. If I were faced with the same shot again (I had 160-odd to the centre of the green from just short of Cheape's bunker), I'd play for short right of the green and count on getting up and down.

I thought the other holes in that stretch were not as imposing from the left, the caveat being that 2 was the only hole of the five I drove left on, so the others it was just from what I saw, not what I had to play.

Am I completely mistaken?

I was driving the ball well during most of my trip, hitting the driver either stright or with a draw (the very occasional hook would get me in trouble) but never losing it right. Thus, I was able to aim down the right side with confidence and simplify most of the holes at TOC significantly. On a more typical day (when nothing about my game is predictable) I think holes like #2, which seem so simple on paper, would be quite maddening.

In other words, I need a lot more experience (1 round is not enough) to answer your question. Hopefully the experts will chime in.

[Jason Topp]

Kyle:

I remember thinking that the view from the 2nd tee was a wall of gorse.  I wonder if they cut some out (I played in 92 and 2000) or if my memory is faulty.

Interesting question about whether a series of holes with the same strategic options is a weakness.  One advantage of the repitition is that one has some understanding of the choices off the tee even though you can see virtually nothing.

Is the typical wind on these holes in your face and left to right?   

[Kyle Henderson]

3rd hole schematic http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_guide2004/old_course_hole_guide_3.html

Tee shot.

Right side bunkers as viewed 160 yards from the green.

The bread and butter of TOC, fairway and green contours.

A peek at the Cartgate bunker.

[Kyle Henderson]

4th hole (“Ginger Beer”) schematic:
http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_guide2004/old_course_hole_guide_4.html
4th tee shot.

4th fairway seen beyond the left side “junk” that Tom Watson claims to have trouble carrying from the new back tee when the “prevailing” winds blow.

The Students’ bunkers found at the left/front of the 4th green. Playing with a strong tailwind, I clubbed down appropriately, but unfortunately my approach landed on the back side of the small mound in the left center of the green’s front edge and kicked far beyond the flag.

A look back at the Auld Toon and the 4th.

[Scott Warren]

C'mon, TOC afficionados, chime in!

That mound, though small, played havoc with my mind after I hit the perfect tee shot down the right to 95yds short of the front. Such a small feature compared to so much else at TOC, but amazingly perplexing nonetheless, especially with the pin cut near the front as it was for me.

[James Boon]

Kyle,

Thanks for these photos. The one time I was due to play TOC I had a migraine that day so couldn't make it. One day I'll get my arse in gear!  

Therefore, my only real knowldege of the course is from watching the pro's either in the flesh or on TV. So its interesting to get an insight of how the course plays from you and Scott who have played it recently, especially as I've played with Scott this summer so have an idea how our games compare.

So I'm no TOC afficionado I'm afraid Scott    My only comment on the 4th is that I seem to recall that when Faldo won in 1990 his only bogeys where on the 17th in a couple of rounds and on the 4th in the last round, when he didn't get up and down from a greenside bunker.  

Also, I quite like the course guide you link to, using aerial photos from an angle rather than a simple plan.

Keep the pictures coming!

Cheers,

James

[Scott Warren]

James, those course guide pics from the St Andrews Links website are the same ones that feature in the yardage guide they give you. Easily the best yardage guide I have ever used, and I get one at every course I play.

[James Boon]

Scott,

I thought they might have been from the course guide you can take round with you. Without getting too technical regarding perspectives etc, I imagine that the angle helps people visualise what is in front of them? Its pretty much as you would see it but from higher up than if you were just on the tee. I imagine some people cant always visualise what is in front of them from a simple plan of the hole, especially as I find the same problem when discussing building plans with people.

I'm actually getting an idea for a thread on yardage chart graphics, maybe some scanning is in order when I get a moment...

Cheers,

James

[Scott Warren]

That would be a cool thread.

Yeah, as with in-car GPS systems, I think the looking forward angle helps you put yourself in the picture and anticipate the distance between features.

St Enodoc uses a similar system, also utilising actual photography.

[Tom Yost]

I'm one who has a keen interest to visit and play TOC before my time is up.  Although I'm somewhat familiar with the finishing holes, and many of the landmark features and hazards, I've never really studied the course hole-by-hole.  For me, threads like this one are fascinating with the combination of various images and the thoughtful and experienced discussions of the group.  Most interestingly, the topic moves along at a pace not unlike that which unfolds as one plays a round of golf, progressing sequentially at a rate that allows me to digest the info one hole at a time (ADD?).

These discussions are some of the best of what GolfClubAtlas has to offer.  Thank you Kyle for starting the thread and all who contribute.


Tom

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm one who has a keen interest to visit and play TOC before my time is up.  Although I'm somewhat familiar with the finishing holes, and many of the landmark features and hazards, I've never really studied the course hole-by-hole.  For me, threads like this one are fascinating with the combination of various images and the thoughtful and experienced discussions of the group.  Most interestingly, the topic moves along at a pace not unlike that which unfolds as one plays a round of golf, progressing sequentially at a rate that allows me to digest the info one hole at a time (ADD?).

These discussions are some of the best of what GolfClubAtlas has to offer.  Thank you Kyle for starting the thread and all who contribute.


Tom

I highly recommend the following books for anyone that desires a detailed examination of the Old Course (photographs, diagrams, textual insights, etc.).

St Andrews: The Old Course and Open Champions by David Joy, Ian McFarlane Lowe and Kyle Phillips.

Experience The Old Course, St. Andrews Links by Richard Goodale

[Scott Warren]

Sorry to go back a few holes, Kyle, but did you have pics of the opening hole?

[Kyle Henderson]

Sorry to go back a few holes, Kyle, but did you have pics of the opening hole?

Just a couple. Reply #12

[David Stamm]

I wish I could intelligently contribute to this thread (or any of yours for that matter), Hans/Frans, but alas, I have no experience at any of them. But your epic threads are serving as additional inspiration to one day sit down over an ale with you and discuss the virtues of these maginificent links. Believe me when I say, your trip is the envy of this man and I hope to walk in your footsteps one day.



Now some questions for you. Do you feel differently about the game now? Do you feel differently about arch? Do you find links in general to your liking?

[Anthony Gray]

  The mound in front of the green, if built today on a modern course would it be critisized?

  Anthony

[Kyle Henderson]

I wish I could intelligently contribute to this thread (or any of yours for that matter), Hans/Frans, but alas, I have no experience at any of them. But your epic threads are serving as additional inspiration to one day sit down over an ale with you and discuss the virtues of these maginificent links. Believe me when I say, your trip is the envy of this man and I hope to walk in your footsteps one day.



Now some questions for you. Do you feel differently about the game now? Do you feel differently about arch? Do you find links in general to your liking?

I'm glad you're enjoying, Stammy Sosa.

To answer your queries, I do not feel that my perceptions of the game have changed dramatically as a result of my trip, though there are some subtle differences. I had a very good year last year in terms of my playing experiences, as I was introduced to the joys of Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Bandon. I went to Scotland in part out of curiosity, wondering how America's "links" compared to the genuine articles. The answer is "quite favorably." The ground game is played in a very similar fashion on very similar turf, especially at Ballyneal and Bandon (fescue fairways and greens). But, of course, such courses are found every few miles along the Scottish coast, whereas they comprise less than 1% of America's golf courses.

While I had a healthy sampling of Scotland’s finest it’s hard for me to put things in context when comparing the overall qualities of courses in the U.K. vs. America, since I’ve played so many junky tracks on this side of the pond.

I definitely love links courses. In particular, I loved the variety of recovery shots required around the greens and the putting contours. Too many of America’s tracks fail to test the imagination.

If I were affluent enough to build my own private course/club in America, I would incorporate the following principles, based on my experiences in Scotland:

1)   Walking only (with the exception of the handicapped)
2)   Dog friendly
3)   3.5 hours max/18 holes
4)   Alternate shot format requirment for foursomes on weekends.
5)   Liberal unaccompanied visitor policies

I look forward to sharing those pints with you someday, amigo!

[Kyle Henderson]

  The mound in front of the green, if built today on a modern course would it be critisized?

  Anthony

Probably by some, but I can think of similar (perhaps "built" is the wrong word) obstacles on modern courses. Does anybody on this forum dislike the mounds fronting the greens on#9 at Ballyneal or #12 at Pacific Dunes?