Ballyneal Greens

[Sean Heenan]

Ok this is my first post and I am happy to add my view.  The greens at Ballyneal rolled perfect, fast and the undulations on the green were spectacular!  The ball will roll as you stuck it!!  I have been very luck to play many “championship” and historical course all over the world.  I would match Ballyneal greens as well above average!!!  The entire experience of Ballyneal is second to none!  The lack of carts is perfect when you are out on the course, time stands still it could be 1920 or 2009.  If you enjoy a good walk it is, if you like holes that you can play from different angles it is, if you want to play a course that looks good from all angles it is.  I'm baffled how anyone can suggest any different.

[Scott Szabo]

Kalen,

Note my comment about newspapers not always getting things right. 

It seemed ridiculous when I read it too, and I wouldn't think that would be coming out of the mouth of Ron Whitten.

Give me a break! What makes you think Ron Whitten should be attributed with reasonable views. After all, he is the primary force behind the "trough hole" at Erin Hills. Didn't even bother to understand the meaning of dell.

BG,

I have no idea as to the reasonable or unreasonable views of Ron Whitten.  I just found it surprising to read that something like that had been said by someone of his relative "position".  Maybe I jumped to conclusions, but I find it odd that the grass on a green would be the driving force behind excluding a course in the Top 100 list.

Scott

[Brad Swanson]

Ok this is my first post and I am happy to add my view. 

Criminy, the admins are letting anyone join these days.

The greens at Ballyneal rolled perfect, fast and the undulations on the green were spectacular!  The ball will roll as you stuck it!!  I have been very luck to play many “championship” and historical course all over the world.  I would match Ballyneal greens as well above average!!!  The entire experience of Ballyneal is second to none!  The lack of carts is perfect when you are out on the course, time stands still it could be 1920 or 2009.  If you enjoy a good walk it is, if you like holes that you can play from different angles it is, if you want to play a course that looks good from all angles it is.  I'm baffled how anyone can suggest any different.

I expect this viewpoint from someone who posted personal bests all weekend long.    Welcome to the great time sink that is GCA, Sean.

Cheers,
Brad

[Jim Colton]

Ok this is my first post and I am happy to add my view.  The greens at Ballyneal rolled perfect, fast and the undulations on the green were spectacular!  The ball will roll as you stuck it!!  I have been very luck to play many “championship” and historical course all over the world.  I would match Ballyneal greens as well above average!!!  The entire experience of Ballyneal is second to none!  The lack of carts is perfect when you are out on the course, time stands still it could be 1920 or 2009.  If you enjoy a good walk it is, if you like holes that you can play from different angles it is, if you want to play a course that looks good from all angles it is.  I'm baffled how anyone can suggest any different.

Oh no, who let this guy in?!?  With Sean putting up one career round after another last weekend, it must be true that Ballyneal is easy

[Ash Towe]

The Ballyneal greens are appropriate to the rest of the course.  You have to look at the philosophy of the design and what has been achieved there to understand the set up.

[Tom Yost]

Seems inconsistent.  I submit:

Pacific Dunes - Fescue greens, no motorized carts...  - #14 Golf Digest America's Greatest Courses

 

[Ben Sims]

I humbly submit that the grass has not a damn thing to do with why the course hasn't been GD ranked yet.  I think much of it simply has to do with the number of plays from GD raters.  I also think it has a bit to do with the lack of tee markers, the lack of a formalized slope, and the location.  The "unconventional-ism" that is Ballyneal isn't accepted by all.  Like I've said before, it's remarkable for what it's not.

Some say it's the private version of Bandon.  Some say it's the "anti-Sand Hills".  Either way, it isn't the first prairie links course and it isn't the first course with fescue greens.  Is is however remote, private, and unconventional.  And I gather that the 104 members prefer it that way.  I loved it the way it is, and I hope that it remains that way as well.  Who gives a damn if it is ranked.   

[Andy Troeger]

I'm not sure what to make of RW's comments. He understands the makeup of the panel so perhaps he was trying to speak to that.

I think its important to remember that most GD raters are low single-digit golfers--and especially that many of them compete mainly in stroke play events. I think Ballyneal belongs in the top 100 and agree with many of the comments made on this thread, but I don't think its surprising that Ballyneal doesn't fit what many GD panelists are looking for in a course. Its the same with Kingsley Club ranking 13th in Michigan and Chambers Bay 5th in Washington. I've played them all and think they are all top 100 quality and they all have some features in common and they all don't do particularly well on the GD surveys. After awhile that's not a surprise.

Courses that will do well on GD's listing are likely in good condition and aesthetically pleasing yes, but also more straightforward than folks on this website probably care for. Canyata, Stone Canyon, and Flint Hills National are good examples of courses that fit that model.

[Jeff Tang]

It seems that if you look at this the opposite way that it becomes clear that Ballyneal got it right. Imagine the greens with bent grass on them or something faster than fescue. It doesn't make sense  because they wouldn't be fair. If they were bent then they would need to be flattened out. If they were flattened out they would not fit in with the surrounding terrain or character of the course. One of the great things about Ballyneal's greens is that they seem like extensions of the fairways themselves, a seamless transition from fairway to green which is really cool and which is why the ground game works so well there. Anything other than what is there, either in grass type or contour wouldn't work nearly as well.

[Mike_Young]

All I have heard is good as to Ballyneal  and hope to ge there this year....BUT think about it...the subconscious of the GD rater IMHO allows conditioning to become a large part of design....he could have easily had an entire group of raters that did not appreciate fescue.....and they may have commented as such on their cards....
Well rating will be interesting this year when there are more ranking available than courses to fill them.....

[Wyatt Halliday]

Either way, it isn't the first prairie links course and it isn't the first course with fescue greens.    

Ben,

I disagree. While it is not the first course with fescue greens, I will argue that it is the first prairie links course. While it doesn't meet the technical description of a links course (as you are probably aware, the sea has yet to make its way to middle america), it is designed, constructed, and maintained to play as a true links. I can't think of any other course on the prairie that comes close to matching the true playing characteristics of a links course.

Wyatt

[JC Jones]

 (as you are probably aware, the sea has yet to make its way to middle america)

I'm pretty sure it was already there (in the form of glaciers), hence the sandy (dunes-like) soils.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I don't think you who are members and fans of Ballyneal should be the least bit concerned about what Ron Whitten says, especially these comments.  Coming from a guy who had a hand in designing a course that is now undergoing a multi-million dollar extreme makeover.

Why pay these comments any mind?  I guess Ballyneal will be successful without a "ranking", so who cares if the course is ranked in GD's Top 100?  Ignore it.

[Wyatt Halliday]

JC,
Correct sir! What I should have said is that it has not returned to middle america yet.

Eric,
Well said. Ballyneal is already successful because what they have created is exactly what they set out to achieve...from the maintenance meld to the barefoot bocce.

Wyatt

[JC Jones]

barefoot bocce?  say it aint so.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Don't knock it til you try it. Beverage of your choice in hand of course.

[JC Jones]

Im not knocking it, I LOVE it.  I am a lover of all things bocce, especially with an adult beverage.  "say it aint so" was in relation to somewhere being even more perfect than it already is.

[Adam Clayman]

Wyatt, Wild Horse is the exception to your argument with Ben's statement.
Also, the esoteric definition of Links should be broad enough to include an area like the chop dunes. I'm willing to bet they were formed by a one-time event that involved one hell of a lot of water.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Adam,

Duly noted on the definition. I have still yet to see Wild Horse so I didn't mention it. A wise man once told me to see it in late winter, especially before the "wooga" gets up. I can't imagine how thick it is this season with all of the rain. I hope to get up there soon.

Cheers,
Wyatt

[Joe Perches]

Also, the esoteric definition of Links should be broad enough to include an area like the chop dunes. I'm willing to bet they were formed by a one-time event that involved one hell of a lot of water.

Hi Adam.  Look up the "Sundance Sea" when you get a chance.

Rankings?  Ballyneal doesn't have to show anyone any stinkin' rankings.

Ballyneal is a great place, the rankings don't matter.

If I could stomach traveling 8 hours each way to play golf there every month or so, I would.
Go Jim Colton, I don't know how you do it.

[Brad Fleischer]

Joe,

That's because it's heaven once your there and he won't stop until he hits 54 which at this pace will take him forever, I mean he had to stop to look up at the sky for christ sake.

I have stated before and will state again I am not much of a rankings guy, I mean is there really that much of a difference between 1 and 2 or 5 and 10 or 25 to 50 etc etc. Usually if you make the list i'll seek you out if I have the means and connections to. With that said if your a rankings guy it's a sheer travesty that this course is not ranked , however I think the membership is quite fine with that fact and I KNOW if I was a member I would be quite fine with it to   You don't need a ranking to tell you just how good this golf COURSE is and that's without mentioning how good the CLUB is. I win the mega and mark my words me and a few lucky gca guys will have a new place to play if they would have us.

Brad

oh and no pm's starting with me over rankings lol

[Kyle Henderson]

The bocce was very fun, particularly our discovery of both a Dell and a Road Hole with which to contend. I have never played the game elsewhere, and I never intend to. Why play on a flat pitch?

The Happy Gilmore/switch hitter session on the first tee was also a hoot.


Many thanks to the host and guests!

[Damon Groves]

Thankfully - Not every course can be littered with artificial mounding, water hazards, too many trees, cart paths scarring the landscape and large flat bent grass greens.

Ballyneal looks like nirvana, and what seems wonderful about the place is that it is for a certain niche of golfers, not the Myrtle Beach types.

For every member that BN loses for not having cart paths and a ten million dollar club house I hope they gain ten. In terms of NA golfers, maybe RW is correct, but there are thousands and thousands of golfers in GBI who walk hilly golf courses until they are put in the ground. With a caddy, it is possible to walk any course that does not have ridiculous green to tee transfers.

Well said. I think Ballyneal's greens are some of the best and most fun I have played and the attitude of the place is what golf should be about. Fun.

[Tom_Doak]

To the contrary, I told the O'Neals from the beginning of the project that I thought Ballyneal would have to achieve a high ranking in order to attract a large enough membership.  And it has -- from two of the three magazines.

I don't really fault Ron Whitten for trying to explain the course's poor results in the GOLF DIGEST poll, though I am sure he clarified that it was not his call and he could only speculate, and they just left that part out.  Then again, once Ron says something like that, it suggests to their panelists that this is the right view.  And some of their panelists are already struggling with the concept of what good maintenance practices look like and play like.  So he should really not say stupid things like he did ... and I bet he wouldn't have said them about a course where he has friends (like Bandon Dunes).

[Jim Colton]

Maybe they left this part out too, although both answers reflect poorly on the GD rating system. The real reasons Ballyneal is not in top 100 are:

1. A number of ballots came from when the course was played during the grow-in stage, with very slow greens.

2. The Golf Digest system is not set-up to reward a course like Ballyneal.

The GD ratings reward tough courses with fast greens. BN is neither of those. The heart of the issue is GD sets the weights in stone, assuming it knows precisely what makes a quality golf course. A course that breaks the mold is never going to fare well. For example, I know plenty of low handicap players that prefer BN over Sand Hills, but even if they were GD raters it's likely that their ballots, once the categories were added up, would still have SH higher than BN. It just means that they value fun and creativity more than resistance to scoring and fast greens.  I continue to find it amazing that GD trusts it's raters enough to quantify a nebulous concept like Shot Values but doesn't trust them enough to provide an overall rating that implicitly combines what that rater values in a golf course.