Ballyneal Greens

[Scott Szabo]

There was a nice write up in today's Denver post on Ballyneal.  There was one comment in the article that left me a bit surprised.  Directly from the article:

One of the reasons Golf Digest left Ballyneal out of its list of top 100 courses in the U.S. is because of the fescue greens, said Ron Whitten, the magazine's course architecture editor. 

I do know that newspapers don't always get statements right but this surprised me a bit.

He also doesn't agree with the ban on motorized carts.  "To not allow carts, for the age group they're after, I think that's a mistake." 
I know this is a bit of a controversy at the club.

Let the comments flow......

[Kalen Braley]

Scott,

If the statement and its attribution are indeed true, then that would be one of the most laughable things I've ever heard.  The greens at Ballyneal are nothing short of fantastic in conditioning, contouring, variety, and smooth putting...they don't get much better than those.  But I wouldn't skewer anyone unless that statement is confirmed.

[Scott Szabo]

Kalen,

Note my comment about newspapers not always getting things right. 

It seemed ridiculous when I read it too, and I wouldn't think that would be coming out of the mouth of Ron Whitten.

[Joe Hancock]

Does RW have any continuing financial interest at Erin Hills? If so, does he have any business making comments about another golf course's decisions as to how it does its business? (specifically, questioning whether carts are not available)

Odd comments for sure, and it should be understood that they may not have been reported in their entirety or correctly.

Joe

[Thomas Patterson]

Here is a link to the article, and the quote in question copied from the article.  I have not played Ballyneal, but will be out there on 9-13/14 and am very much looking forward to it.  I have a feeling I will like the greens just fine!   

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12895039

Despite its rave reviews, not everyone is a fan. Rupert O'Neal acknowledges some prospective members declined to join because they were turned off by the club's folksy attitude and lack of frills.

The fescue greens turn off some golfers. Rupert O'Neal said that, because of the severe undulations, Ballyneal's greens would be too slick if they were bent grass. The "old-school" putting surface reflects the character of a links course.

One of the reasons Golf Digest left Ballyneal out of its list of top 100 courses in the U.S. is because of the fescue greens, said Ron Whitten, the magazine's course architecture editor.

"I tell people Ballyneal is an acquired taste," Whitten said.

He doesn't agree with the ban on motorized carts.

"To not allow carts, for the age group they're after, I think that's a mistake," Whitten said.

Asked about the cart controversy, Rupert O'Neal said as the club membership ages, he will build another course that will allow carts. The chop hills, he adds, could easily accommodate seven or eight more courses.



Interesting about building another course as well.......

[Carl Nichols]

It's a particularly odd statement since, as I understand it, the GD list is nothing more than aggregated data from many individual raters.

[Adam Clayman]

Don't forget, there are no trees.

Added;

RW probably only saw the place back in 06' when the speeds were still frustrating to "most".

One good thing, we have not had to re-do any holes. Hep added some bunker work and about now I bet RO wishes the one on 18 wasn't.

[Jim Colton]

To each their own, I guess.  I was out at Ballyneal earlier this week and thought the greens were the best they've ever been.  Some people might not like the wild, fescue greens, the creativity and freedom that the course provides, walking only, and the laid-back vibe of the place.  They're not going to be a good fit with the club anyways.  I don't think Ballyneal is trying to be all things to all people.  For me, every round just stirs the soul.

On Monday, Jeff Tang and I felt like Magellan after we 'discovered' a great tee box for the sixth hole, teeing off front and left of the 5th green.  The holes plays as a long dogleg left, where you can see a hint of the fairway and have to flirt with the left bunker.  The lack of tee markers was just a brilliant move and is consistent with the culture of the club.

[Richard Choi]

That is just ridiculous. What excuse are they going to use when Chambers Bay and its all fescue greens (Ballyneal is a fescue/bent mix) debuts on the Top 100 List (I guarantee it will by 2015)?

To me, they are just admitting that conditioning over-rides architecture on GD lists.

[Rob Rigg]

Thankfully - Not every course can be littered with artificial mounding, water hazards, too many trees, cart paths scarring the landscape and large flat bent grass greens.

Ballyneal looks like nirvana, and what seems wonderful about the place is that it is for a certain niche of golfers, not the Myrtle Beach types.

For every member that BN loses for not having cart paths and a ten million dollar club house I hope they gain ten. In terms of NA golfers, maybe RW is correct, but there are thousands and thousands of golfers in GBI who walk hilly golf courses until they are put in the ground. With a caddy, it is possible to walk any course that does not have ridiculous green to tee transfers.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, Have you tried a similar teeing ground for 14? I don't remember if we played there last month or not.

If a cripple like me can get a round without a cart, so can everyone.

I Think we need to have a few more real links golfers come and play there. Anyone with enough experience around GB&I to confirm just how unique a course BN really is. I can't confirm but i suspect there is no course like it in the world. With all the coore principles that we use to wax on and off about back in the early days of GCA.com.

I will extend an invite to anyone from across the pond who wishes to see for themselves what a non ASGCA member can do. 

Ben Sims, See if you can get a copy of "Minimalist Blues"?

[JC Jones]

Im not sure what lack of carts, size of clubhouse or  Ballyneal's financial forecast have anything to do with the quality of the GOLF COURSE.

I hope one day to have the chance to play Ballyneal because a great golf course where golf is the only thing that matters is exactly what I'm looking for.  Everything else just distracts you from why you made the trip.

[Scott Szabo]

Interesting about building another course as well.......

Thomas,

My understanding is that this has been bantered about for a year or two.  The planned course will be to the north of the current course and will be of the public variety.  I'm sure the members of Ballyneal will have more to say on this matter, but that's my understanding, for what it's worth.  I think it would be a great idea.  I would bet the economy has had something to do with its delay.

Scott

[Scott Szabo]

That is just ridiculous. What excuse are they going to use when Chambers Bay and its all fescue greens (Ballyneal is a fescue/bent mix) debuts on the Top 100 List (I guarantee it will by 2015)?

To me, they are just admitting that conditioning over-rides architecture on GD lists.

Hard to believe that the type of grass used on the greens would dictate inclusion or exclusion on the top 100 list. 

However, I would doubt that rankings make a difference at all to the current members of the club.  They know what a gem they have.

[JC Jones]

Interesting about building another course as well.......

Thomas,

My understanding is that this has been bantered about for a year or two.  The planned course will be to the north of the current course and will be of the public variety.  I'm sure the members of Ballyneal will have more to say on this matter, but that's my understanding, for what it's worth.  I think it would be a great idea.  I would bet the economy has had something to do with its delay.

Scott

can we start the speculation now on who the designer would be of the second course?   

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting about building another course as well.......

Thomas,

My understanding is that this has been bantered about for a year or two.  The planned course will be to the north of the current course and will be of the public variety.  I'm sure the members of Ballyneal will have more to say on this matter, but that's my understanding, for what it's worth.  I think it would be a great idea.  I would bet the economy has had something to do with its delay.

Scott

can we start the speculation now on who the designer would be of the second course?  

Rees Jones?   

[Thomas Patterson]

I agree..I had just never seen it in an article, just more hearsay.  I think it would be a wonderful idea if done properly.  I have also heard a potential name thrown around was "Grateful Dunes" since Rupert is a huge Dead fan.  I myself, am a fan and love the name as well. 

Cheers!

[Scott Szabo]

I agree..I had just never seen it in an article, just more hearsay.  I think it would be a wonderful idea if done properly.  I have also heard a potential name thrown around was "Grateful Dunes" since Rupert is a huge Dead fan.  I myself, am a fan and love the name as well. 

Cheers!

That's the name I had heard as well!

[Brad Swanson]

The fescue greens are fantastic.  They roll at an appropriate speed for the contours and blend beautifully into the surrounds for a wonderful asthetic appeal.  I see them as a + instead of a -.  Personally, I think the lack of carts is a plus in most ways too, except when trying to squeeze in the second or third round of the day for most. 

I Think we need to have a few more real links golfers come and play there. Anyone with enough experience around GB&I to confirm just how unique a course BN really is. I can't confirm but i suspect there is no course like it in the world. With all the coore principles that we use to wax on and off about back in the early days of GCA.com.

Adam,
   Is the red text some type of freudian slip?   

[JC Jones]

Rees Jones?   

well, this Jones would design it for much less... and probably do a better job.

[Kyle Henderson]

Ballyneal is as good as golf courses get, in part because of its greens. They are unique but perfectly suited to the rest of the grounds. Pin positions make every hole a different challenge (as do the wind and tee choices) from day to day and the fescue greens are as true and quick as rationality allows for given the splendid putting contours and possible weather conditions. I never get tired of playing approaches to, chipping or pitching back on to, and 4 putting those greens.  

I have no doubt that Sand Hills garners more praise because of its less "unconventional" bent grass greens. High art is not always accessible enough to receive wide acclaim. Most of the best musicians never make a penny.

Ballyneal is unsurpassed.

[David Kelly]

>>>>>"I tell people Ballyneal is an acquired taste," Whitten said.

Yeah, you have to play it once to acquire the taste.

I think it is very strange for GD to have a process in place for rating golf courses based on many different criteria but then when the leader of the panel is asked why a course didn't make the list he gives a single specific answer.

Of course he might have said a lot more and the reporter only used that portion.

[Tim Pitner]

I was surprised to pick up my copy of the Denver Post this morning and read an article about Ballyneal--I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that I was surprised to see Ballyneal in the non-golf press.  

Re: the greens, I love the undulation but I suppose not everyone will.  What I don't understand are complaints about fescue greens.  The greens at Ballyneal, as well as the greens at the Bandon Dunes resort (for example), are some of the truest greens I have ever putted.  To me, they're a joy to putt.  

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

Note my comment about newspapers not always getting things right. 

It seemed ridiculous when I read it too, and I wouldn't think that would be coming out of the mouth of Ron Whitten.

Give me a break! What makes you think Ron Whitten should be attributed with reasonable views. After all, he is the primary force behind the "trough hole" at Erin Hills. Didn't even bother to understand the meaning of dell.

[Kalen Braley]

I was surprised to pick up my copy of the Denver Post this morning and read an article about Ballyneal--I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that I was surprised to see Ballyneal in the non-golf press. 

Re: the greens, I love the undulation but I suppose not everyone will.  What I don't understand is complaints about fescue greens.  The greens at Ballyneal, as well as the greens at the Bandon Dunes resort (for example), are some of the truest greens I have ever putted.  To me, they're a joy to putt. 

Tim,

I agree here wholeheartedly...the greens at Bandon and Ballyneal rolled perfect, plenty fast, with lots of interesting undulations.  I'm baffled how anyone can suggest they are less than terrific.