[JSPayne]

Jim Franklin's thread on "How would you react?" regarding introducing yourself at a golf course, especially if you are in some way affiliated with the industry and a recent discussion with my own GM has got me wondering......

What happened to that unique, friendly, personable connection between golf course management and the golfers?

Granted, I'm a little too young to remember really well, but I've had some experiences and I know from my dad and other longer-time golfers that the relationships between golfers and either the pro, GM or superintendents at golf courses used to be much more intertwined and personal.

Who overused the "comp plea" so much that every golf course manager is put off by the industry-affliated guest that wants to come see and/or play the course and wants to contact management to ask questions or just say hi and meet those in charge of a great facility?

Jim's thread deals with a rater trying to introduce himself to the pro. My conversation with my GM occurred when I was recalling a few times when I had been on a road trip with my dad and brother, an annual ritual we have, where we visited some nicer courses I had been longing to see in an area I don't get to much, if at all. I'm a superintendent and though I do get comped alot by friends in the industry, when I go to places where I don't know anyone, I don't expect to be comped and I don't even try. HOWEVER, I love my part of the industry because many superintendents are so personable, and we all have our own unique situations and problems and I've learned VOLUMES of useful tips and advice just from chatting with my peers. So if I'm going to a course that I know to be great and well-respected, I'm always interested in meeting the man in charge and picking his brain a little, getting some insider knowledge on the course. Some guys aren't personable, and would feel uncomfortable doing this, but others love meeting other supers. So I always give a call, let them know I'm going to be at their property, even if I'm with family, have a tee time and already plan on paying, just in case they happen to be around and we can meet up and chat for a few minutes.

I've made numerous friends in the industry in such a manner and have rarely had a problem doing this, but when I mentioned it to my GM, he was astonished I'd ever imagine making such contact. Because, he states, if anyone did that to him, he'd automatically assume they're looking for a comp and really have no interest in meeting or talking or even just saying hi.

What happened to people getting to know the employees of a golf course? Why is there now this ingrained reaction by management that anyone unusual calling to say they're going to be visiting is looking for free handouts? It's a shame that we've lost these valuable personal connections.......

[Chris Cupit]

I'll give it a shot.

As someone who grew up in the industry--five uncles were/are golf professionals, my dad's career began as Pro/Superintendent, I grew up as a bag room rat, then to the golf shop and after my dad's death, my mother and I continue to operate a private golf club with me as the G.M.

If a Class A or a Head Super wants to play I am happy to extend to them the courtesy of a freebie.  I know they have worked their asses off in this business and I have no issue whatsoever doing that.  (GM included too although I am bised against the CMAA "foodie types ).

After that it gets a little trickier.  Assistant pros--if an asssitant at a club wants to play and his club is willing to reciprocate for my assistants, well OK.  I have had "bag room guys" from a snootie (and going broke ) club that called asking for free golf--they were not shy--and when I asked if my GOLF PRO who had not played their yet could maybe come one day the answer was NO!  Needless to say, they did not play.

Again, I am happy to extend the golf as a courtesy to those who WORK in the industry.  I have had shapers, architects and irrigation guys all come and play as my guests and I was only too happy to have them.

Raters are not viewed by many in the industry as "working in the industry".  For the dedicated architect lover who spends a lot of time and money rating, well I think most in the industry think that person is the exception.  Most think raters simply do it and long to be raters for the free golf.  I have overwhelmingly had good rater experiences but the jury is still out in my mind as to what I think of raters "in general".

I can  tell you that I was excited about having Golf Digest let me know that someone thought enough of Mike Riley's redo that it had been nominated for rating.  I know that the rating period is over and I wish I could say our hidden gem was recognized but.....
Since I know the rating (for best renovation) had a time limit that has been over for some time when I get a GD rater who calls and introduces himself as a rater and asks to come play (usually around 10:30 on a Friday ) my antenna go up because I KNOW he is not rating anything, he is looking to play free golf.

It cuts both ways though and I admit that I am "using" the raters and comping golf not because I think they have any particular insights or opinions worth listening to but because I hope the free golf and a fun day results in a good review.  And for certain, if my club was recognized by any rating service as one of the best anything you better believe I'm getting that article framed and displayed ASAP!  I'm also using it in my marketing info like everyone else.  I think ratings are absolute BS but they matter to the golfing public and anything I can do to get some nice attention I'm doing.

I think I have hosted as many from this site as I have raters and almost without exception the GCA guys want to hear about the course, its history and what we were thinking with certain holes.  Mostly, even the "polite raters' are just in and out as fast as they can without as much as a thanks.  I've decided It is far more important to me that my course earn the respect of so many of the great guys I've met on this site.  

(I have met very few GCA guys that were also raters and I am sure that had that been the case my rater view would be a lot kinder.)

 

 

[Ed Oden]

Chris, I have reached a point where I am just as likely (perhaps even moreso) to click on a thread based on who is posting than I am because of the subject matter of the thread.  Sometimes it is because I know I will be entertained.  Other times it is because controversy must either have already broken out or is sure to follow shortly.  Only rarely is it because the person posting consistently takes an honest, reasoned and sensible position, usually laced with real world perspective, such that I know I will get something out of reading his posts even if the subject isn't particularly on my radar screen.  Clicking on your last post confirms that I am right in placing you in the latter catagory.  Thanks.

Ed

[Mike Nuzzo]

I've made numerous friends in the industry in such a manner and have rarely had a problem doing this, but when I mentioned it to my GM, he was astonished I'd ever imagine making such contact. Because, he states, if anyone did that to him, he'd automatically assume they're looking for a comp and really have no interest in meeting or talking or even just saying hi.

It is hard to imagine not talking to a visitor for fear of them asking for a comp.
He could just say no.

You are on the right path - stick to it and help your GM see the light.

[Chris Cupit]

What happened to people getting to know the employees of a golf course? Why is there now this ingrained reaction by management that anyone unusual calling to say they're going to be visiting is looking for free handouts? It's a shame that we've lost these valuable personal connections.......

JS 

I agree with Mike that it is a shame many (including myself at times) have gotten so jaded.  I promise I love talking about my course and how its changed to anyone who will listen.  I also grew up my whole life "talking golf" and I love the banter among golfers that is unique.  (Just don't give me a shot by shot re-cap if I ask how you played ).

The comp/freebie issue is a delicate one and the best I can say is that it is very often how you say something and not just what you are saying or asking for that means the difference between me stiffening up and thinking you just want to get a free round and me looking forward to hearing how you liked this or that feature on the course (over some beers of course afterwards!).  Fair or not, it's often just a gut feeling.

[Mike Sweeney]

Last Friday I had to pick up my son at Hotchkiss School and I went up early to play the golf course and was comped by my/our friend Jim Kennedy. Now I try to play Hotchkiss once or twice a year but Jim won't let me pay. Okay the Hotchkiss camp was not cheap so they are getting a piece anyway, but it is not on Jim's P&L.

I said to Jim, "I don't want this (comp) showing up on a Rater Bashing thread!" It was maybe my favorite golf day of the year. I played 7 holes alone winding through the campus above the lake with the mountains in the distance. Played the last two holes with a local and then we went in to shoot the breeze and watch The Open Championship with Jim and his son. Now if more than 4 guys are inside the "Clubhouse" at Hotchkiss, it is very crowded.

My point is the "Disconnect" probably depends on the place.

By the way, as a big fan of Scott Ramsey at Yale, Golf Supers are the unsung heroes of golf. Rating courses and tending to courses should never be compared.

[John Moore II]

Chris, I can see where you come from. When I was still at a club, I almost felt bad about calling to ask and come play. I would let anybody on the course (we were some private hybrid course, hard to explain where we fell) if you called to ask, but the head pro would not let anybody from another course out. Hell, it was an ordeal for some guys from Pinehurst Country Club to get out one day, to tell what kind of tools we had working there. So, now that I work at a range, in all but the rarest situations, I just go out to the course, pay the fee and go about my business. But, I, personally, would let just about anyone come out to play (unless I was working for a fully private club), Class A pro's, supers, green staff, assistant pros, anybody. You work in the business, thats good enough for me.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris, I have reached a point where I am just as likely (perhaps even moreso) to click on a thread based on who is posting than I am because of the subject matter of the thread.  Sometimes it is because I know I will be entertained.  Other times it is because controversy must either have already broken out or is sure to follow shortly.  Only rarely is it because the person posting consistently takes an honest, reasoned and sensible position, usually laced with real world perspective, such that I know I will get something out of reading his posts even if the subject isn't particularly on my radar screen.  Clicking on your last post confirms that I am right in placing you in the latter catagory.  Thanks.

Ed

Thanks.

John,

I understand sometimes people's hands are tied by policies they can't control.  My situation is a little different since we've been at the club for 36 years and most everyone who calls knows I can OK the round.  I totally agree with you that if you work in the business, you deserve a comp round!  I'm still trying to figure out where I put raters though...I simply haven't figured it out yet. 

I also can be hypersensitive since I get so many requests for rounds ("friends" I never knew I had from school, "friends of dad's" some of whom ask how he's doing , and of course "prospective" members)  I am also trying to protect my Members investment as they have paid and continue to pay and I really do feel guilty at times letting strangers play for free. 

Having said all that 95% of the time I am glad I can make someone's day by having them out to play.   

[Peter Ferlicca]

To give my two cents, I am an Assistant Pro at Stone Eagle Golf Club in the winters and then an Assistant Pro at Adams Mountain Country Club in Eagle, Co in the summers.  At Stone Eagle we are happy to have out pros and supers to see the course because in our opinion it is BY FAR the best desert course they will step on and we want them to experience it.  Now, to be honest, not to bash the raters on this site, but I have convinced the head pro and director of golf to NOT let the raters out anymore because it will honestly not to do anything but help out our status.  We have had pretty much every rater from every magazine come out and it has done us absolutely nothing, they must all be blind.  I say this because we will have some rater come out saying that the Quintero Rees Jones track is way better than Stone Eagle and I just want to puke, it is just quite mind boggling.  And then you have the Quarry at La Quinta who WON'T LET ANYONE OUT (You have to play with a member or good luck getting out) and then get rated inside the Top 50 in America (I wonder why that is).  Considering everyone that has played the Quarry and Stone Eagle says that the best four holes at the Quarry are the whole course at Stone Eagle.  IMHO raters rate a course higher when they tell you, "sorry, we can't accommodate you that day, but hopefully we can have you out some other time. (which means sorry but you will NEVER come out)  

And then here in the summers at Adams Mountain Country Club, its gets remarked from people all over Vail Valley as the best course in the Valley, but yet we get no respect once again.  Our GM gets calls ALL DAY from people wanting to come out and play the course but yet the only way they can come out and play is if they are a truly prospective member, meaning you are a millionaire.  Now, we do let out sometimes other local pros and our super always invites out his own personal other super buddies, but that is about it.  I would love to have more pros and supers out but we have the rule that you can only play when you are accompanied, so it makes it somewhat hard to let everyone out.

Pretty much all the high end private clubs now a day have become so SNOOTIE that clubs just think that they are better than everyone else, that they do not need to let anyone out to see their great golf course.  I agree that working in the golf business is all about experiencing other facilities to see how it is run, and how great the condition is from the supers, but like I said everyone just thinks they are better than everyone else, so it just doesn't happen anymore.

[Jason McNamara]

Is part of the deal that these days some courses get too many requests for raters?  How many courses don't accept raters?  And of those who do, are they allowed to subsequently contact the publication and say OK, no more raters this year?

Couldn't the magazines create a class of courses where there was a lottery for raters, so as not to inundate certain courses?  Does any course need more than (say) 20 raters?  (2.5 a month for an 8-month season)

Thanks for shedding some light on this for someone unfamiliar with the rating game.

[John Moore II]

Jason, I want to say I have been told by some raters that many of the ultra-exclusive clubs have certain days of the year when raters are allowed on the course. They allow 30 or ever how many raters out on that day and thats it. No calling, no asking to play (unless with a member of course) nothing. And I am not sure about the 'need' for raters, though I am pretty sure most of the publications require a certain number of ratings to be included in the rankings.

In all my time at clubs, I only heard from 1 rater, and I let him out free, had no problems. When the US Am was in Pinehurst last year, we let out a dozen or more Golf Channel guys in the afternoons, all comps; again, I had no problem with it.


Chris-Those "friends," I don't bother with them. And I've had those people who I know slightly ask all the time for me to get cousins and friends on the course (they never asked until I got a posh club job, certainly). I told them no, so long as I had even a half way plausible excuse.

[Dan Herrmann]

One of my joys is getting "folks in the industry" to play at my club.  I'm not talking about the head pro - I'm talking about locker room attendants, cooks, and caddiemasters.  There's nothing in it for me other than helping another guy that loves golf to have some fun.

[Greg Tallman]

It cuts both ways though and I admit that I am "using" the raters and comping golf not because I think they have any particular insights or opinions worth listening to but because I hope the free golf and a fun day results in a good review.  And for certain, if my club was recognized by any rating service as one of the best anything you better believe I'm getting that article framed and displayed ASAP!  I'm also using it in my marketing info like everyone else.  I think ratings are absolute BS but they matter to the golfing public and anything I can do to get some nice attention I'm doing.

I think I have hosted as many from this site as I have raters and almost without exception the GCA guys want to hear about the course, its history and what we were thinking with certain holes.  Mostly, even the "polite raters' are just in and out as fast as they can without as much as a thanks.  I've decided It is far more important to me that my course earn the respect of so many of the great guys I've met on this site.  

(I have met very few GCA guys that were also raters and I am sure that had that been the case my rater view would be a lot kinder.)

Refreshingly honest. Kudos Chris.

And by the way I am quite thankful that the proprietors of this site have no dog in the ratings fight! 

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