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Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Learning more from the bad ... than from the good
« on: July 18, 2009, 09:50:34 AM »
I have a question...

How many of us learn almost more from "bad" architecture than from "good"?

I know you're going to say it depends on the definition of good ... or bad for that matter.  So for that I'd just say, use your definition.

For me that means variety in design, topography/undulation, quirk, fun, challenge, risk/reward, daring, routing, hole sequences, blindness, wind, anticipation, and deceptiveness to name a few things that come to mind in "good" architecture.

I will always learn more from playing the course than from reading the GCA posts.  The GCA posts can and often do offer a lot, but it's not until you get onto the course that you can really appreciate a course ... or not.

And the sad part is I'm playing more and more of what I would call "bad" courses and learning more (or reminding myself more) of what I find as "bad".

So tell us about some places you've played where you learned more about how it shouldn't have been done and point out what you found to be poorly conceived.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Learning more from the bad ... than from the good
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 11:00:12 AM »
Patrick, One fundamental mistake I can cite is when the designer places a bunker on the inside of a dog leg, tempting the player to carry it, only to have the area beyond the bunker unplayable. I won't mention who does this repeatedly because I will be accused of bashing. But, in general I agree we all learn more from mistakes than successes. If we can learn from others mistakes, we are one step ahead.

When I'm on a golf course and everything just seems to work properly, designwise, I'll catch myself not thinking about my critical eye because any criticism is barley noticeable. But, when there's a note out of place, and I become aware of it, my mind perceives it as a mistake. A great example of that happened to me on my first visit to Prairie Dunes. After playing the 12th those trees must have sparked something because I realized I hadn't thought one iota about the gca other than to interface with it. Standing on 13 tee I noticed these bunkers on the right that were not in character with all the previous bunkering. The next morning I went out of my way to meet Stan George the super and I asked him about those bunkers. he told me his predecessor had added those. When I met Doug Peterson(sp?), Stan's Predecessor, I asked him why he built those bunkers there. His response was as perfect as a response could be. He said his members were constantly losing their balls in that area, so he built the bunkers. Now, it may not be the best justification for their construction, but since it was only that spot, I accepted the answer and do not think less of them, or Prairie Dunes, for it.

That's what makes this DG so helpful. If someone can articulate why the mistake I perceived is not a mistake, I'm not so married to my opinion to not be able to see the other side.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:04:04 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Learning more from the bad ... than from the good
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 11:13:26 AM »
We certainly learn from the bad but I don't know if we learn more from it.  CB McDonald learned from North Berwick about the redan,  Pete Dye learned from his trip to Scotland, Tom Doak ditto.  I don't design, but I have played holes that are awesome that I would use as a template.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Learning more from the bad ... than from the good
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2009, 03:06:33 PM »
Patrick, One fundamental mistake I can cite is when the designer places a bunker on the inside of a dog leg, tempting the player to carry it, only to have the area beyond the bunker unplayable. I won't mention who does this repeatedly because I will be accused of bashing. But, in general I agree we all learn more from mistakes than successes. If we can learn from others mistakes, we are one step ahead.

When I'm on a golf course and everything just seems to work properly, designwise, I'll catch myself not thinking about my critical eye because any criticism is barley noticeable. But, when there's a note out of place, and I become aware of it, my mind perceives it as a mistake. A great example of that happened to me on my first visit to Prairie Dunes. After playing the 12th those trees must have sparked something because I realized I hadn't thought one iota about the gca other than to interface with it. Standing on 13 tee I noticed these bunkers on the right that were not in character with all the previous bunkering. The next morning I went out of my way to meet Stan George the super and I asked him about those bunkers. he told me his predecessor had added those. When I met Doug Peterson(sp?), Stan's Predecessor, I asked him why he built those bunkers there. His response was as perfect as a response could be. He said his members were constantly losing their balls in that area, so he built the bunkers. Now, it may not be the best justification for their construction, but since it was only that spot, I accepted the answer and do not think less of them, or Prairie Dunes, for it.

That's what makes this DG so helpful. If someone can articulate why the mistake I perceived is not a mistake, I'm not so married to my opinion to not be able to see the other side.



Adam, it might have been cheaper to cut the rough down to 3".  ;)

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