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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2009, 11:33:08 AM »
So I return to my original question.

If all of the requisite information can be obtained without identifying yourself then what possibly could be the puropose for introduciing yourself as a panelist?

Greg, have you ever introduced yourself as anything other than "Greg"?

Greg, the golf pro.

Greg, so and so's brother/father/brother/friend/cousin?

Greg, who went to XYZ college, too?

Greg, who lives in ABCville?

Anything other than just "Greg"?

No atempt to bond and find a quick commonality between you and the person with whom you're speaking?

Never? 

Not even to break the ice, whether intentionally or not?

Not all conversation is purely utilitarian.  Not all conversation has a defined purpose.  Some conversation has no purpose.   Particularly at smalltalk havens like golf courses.  Indeed, most conversation has no such ulterior motive. It's just conversation.  Hell, look at this board if you need proof...  ;D

I think you suffer from the same malady that Richard Choi suffers from - the presumption that there must be an ulterior motive because no discernable alternative utilitarian purpose exists.  I think that's a false premise. 

Great response and in fairness I would be guilty of over analyzing the "intent" of most things. Just my nature. Rather helpful in most instances but less so in others I suppose.

About the only time I introduce myself as anything is when the topic is college football... 49 days, 49 more days.

Thanks for your post. 

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2009, 11:40:26 AM »
For those who sent me personal messages, Than you, but it's OK I have very thick skin and don't shy away from a good debate. Unfortunately a good debate can often wind up in the gutter when two sides have completely valid points and there is NO REAL ANSWER.

Ran, no need to chime in on how thick the "skin" truly is ;)

Anthony Gray

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2009, 03:12:01 PM »


  Greg,

  I'm a little late in all of this so let me just say. Let's Goooooooooooooo Mountaineers.

   Anthony


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #103 on: July 18, 2009, 04:31:30 PM »


  Greg,

  I'm a little late in all of this so let me just say. Let's Goooooooooooooo Mountaineers.

   Anthony



Absolutely!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #104 on: July 18, 2009, 08:37:21 PM »
Tom H. has it right here.

Jim F.:  If you didn't know that there are some golf clubs (I would guess somewhere between 25-50 of them) who are sick to death of panelists showing up to pass judgment on their courses, you are one step closer to the truth.  Some of those courses really DON'T need GOLF DIGEST (or any other publication) to certify their status as great courses, and have been abused in the past by raters of all stripes seeking freebies.  I have personally been in the pro shop at great courses when raters of X, Y and Z have showed up with buddies in tow hoping (expecting) to be comped.

If you were my guest at Crystal Downs, you would of course want to say hello to the professional, but not in the capacity of a rater.  And if you were visiting on a Monday -- his day off -- do you really think he should show up on his day off just to say hello to you?  Or even go out of his way just to see you?  The only reason he would do so is if I told him you were interested in the history of the course -- not if you told him so.

Is that not as it should be?  The professional of a golf club is an employee of the members.  The members tell him who to be nice to, or not.

Damon Groves

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2009, 08:59:18 PM »
Reading through all of this makes me very glad I don't have the money to belong to a club. For me it would be San Gabriel CC in San Gabriel CA but instead I proudly make my home course Santa Anita Golf Course in Arcadia. Having been a guest at a number of private clubs it fascinates me to no end how self important the members are and how much of an effort they go out of their way to make sure you know you are a guest. Clubs like LACC, The Bridges, The Reserve and Del Mar CC for example. Every now and then I am surprised by a club and its members who treat you like a human being but for the most part the experience in this thread is what I see too much of. At least in the Southern Cal area. It simply does not need to be that way. At Ballyneal I could not have been treated better and Rupert absolutely knew I had no ability to become a member. It is called simple courtesy and respect.

As for those that have gotten so worked up in this thread...get a life. Life is too short.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2009, 01:07:35 AM »
This has been a fascinating thread, and an informative one for me, especially since my summer job tangentially involves all this.

This summer, I'm writing articles for a local publication called Carolinas Golf Times.  The vast majority of them are reviews--mostly profiles with some critique--of courses in the Myrtle Beach area.  I've played four courses (all public/resort) and I've been comped three times.  I'm sure I can still be objective whether or not I get comped.  When calling up courses to play and review, I have always announced myself--as politely as I can--as someone who is on behalf of Carolinas Golf Times.  I have played on slower late-afternoons so as not to get in the way of paying customers.  I pay for my own yardage books, food, whatever else.  Some of the opinions expressed in here have been really helpful to me as I try to comport myself as professionally as possible going forward.

Gib Papazian and Tom Huckaby and others, I envy you all.  I feel like I've had a glimpse of what you raters get to do through my own efforts this summer.  I know I am yet a young amateur GCA nut and I have a long way to go before attaining the opportunities you and others have as true authorities on architecture.  I hope to be such someday, but I've got to pay some dues along the way.

It's great that you are so truly devoted to the game of golf and to golf course architecture.  Either that or you are brilliant con artists who have got the ultimate racket whereby you've convinced your families that you really do have to play golf.  ;D ;D ;D

Nahh, I think y'all are genuine.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Gib_Papazian

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2009, 05:03:42 PM »
Greg,

Thank you for the invitation, I hope you were not too badly scalded by my hyperbolic repartee. I've never been to Cabo and it is a long shot I'll ever end up down there. However, if you make it to San Francisco, I would be more than happy to host you out at Olympic.

The website seems to be getting more and more deadly serious, where tongue-in-cheek rants that used to be taken with a grain of salt are now picked apart with tweezers like that ridiculous Merion thread. The sad part is that with the exception of MacWood, all of those guys once had a sense of humor.

I've had insane games of literary ping pong on there over the years, but until now nobody took anything to heart. Just so you know, I sit at my desk and roar with laughter after writing some of this stuff and never get pissed about anything.

What I said about my philosophy of rating was 100% truthful and you are absolutely right that there are a few couthless panelists I have wanted to slap across the face after watching their sheer arrogance and entitlement on display.

However, they are the very rare exception. I've got quite a few close friends on both panels and the level of comportment and courteousness - even when paying - is almost over-the-top. Believe me, the vast majority of those who have come far enough to obtain a card on either panel are hyper-aware that we represent the magazine and would rather eat glass than be anything but a pleasure to have at the golf course.

BTW, as an example, at one course this last weekend (114 degrees), the last tee time booked was ours at 8:50am due to the heat. The tee sheet was empty until later in the afternoon. I paid for my cart and my two friends slapped down the plastic at full price. By the time we were done with breakfast, lunch, green fees, carts, executive beverages and yardage books, the three of us put more than $300 in the till. Not a bad haul for a new golf course struggling for business under scorching skies.

It goes both ways - which was the starting point of this thread. One time years ago, I was in Scottsdale with some friends as the guest of the G.M. The golf course is an unbelievably high tone club and although two of us had rated the course the previous year, the G.M. insisted that we come back because he sent a group of his members to me at Olympic.

While we had lunch, he mentioned a brand new public golf course (green fees $42) about 40 minutes away that had some wildly interesting architectural features. The designer was a complete unknown and his description had "hidden gem" written all over it in capital letters.

Naturally, I wanted to be the one to discover the next Stevinson Ranch and called the golf shop the minute we finished play. The response from the head pro was shiveringly cold. He was not interested in any panelists coming to rate his golf course and that was that. I explained that we were happy to pay the green fees and whatever else because I had been told it was something to check out.

I was tersely told there were no tee times available for the next two days - which was hard to believe because the temperature was well into the 90's and the Spring Baseball crowd was gone. Okay, I thought, we had to catch an airplane the next night, so I called the pro back and asked if I could rent a cart and just drive around and look at the golf course. "We do not rent carts to non-players and our policy is that we do not allow walkers or spectators on the golf course if that is your next question."

I gave up. Maybe I pressed it too hard, but finding a brand new Rustic Canyon in the middle of nowhere with cheap fees is worth investigating.

The end of the story is that this pro - who did not last long at the facility - took the time to make a series of phone calls to complain and accuse me of "trying to force myself and a group onto the golf course for a free round."

It was a deliberate attempt to try and hurt and embarrass me because this pro obviously hates panelists for some reason. It resulted in a falling out with someone I greatly respect and a lot of hard feelings. The point is that some of these Directors of Golf and G.M.'s have a chip on their shoulder and act like ayatollahs just for the sheer joy of being nasty.

Yet all I was trying to do was be the first to discover something interesting - which would bring more people to their fledgling operation. Isn't that the point of a rating panel? Doak's comment about Crystal Downs is irrelevant because I cannot imagine Golf Digest would ever specifically assign a rater to go there unless it had been remodeled. I've been friends with Tom a long time, but he is all wet on this one.

Much of his success can be attributed to adoring panelists who seek out his creations every chance they get. Would Bandon have been as successful if not for massive publicity - much from panelists who trekked up there? In some ways, we are a conduit to the general public and serve much the same purpose (and add value) as movie critics.

Does anybody call out Roger Ebert because he sees movies for free?    
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 12:45:59 AM by Gib Papazian »

Tom Huckaby

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #108 on: July 20, 2009, 05:12:54 PM »
Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

Not true.  i have been in private clubs all over the US and charged golf shop purchases back to my home club account.  Those club managers do not want to miss a sale!

Bill:  you can do that as you are a member at a private club. I cannot.  But yes I would guess plenty don't want to miss any sales.

Tom Huckaby

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #109 on: July 20, 2009, 05:15:39 PM »

Huckaby adds yet a third wrinkle by throwing in course rating by a state association, and that is a complete and total non sequiteur as well as red herring.  How often would someone rating a course and wearing that cute shirt logo also be a guest of a member?


Bill:  it was neither a non-sequitur nor a red herring.  Someone posted that us raters should ALWAYS inform the pro when we are at a course.  I cited my example as a time where I figured that would be pretty silly.   I also fully agree with what you state is your main point (and in fact so state in this very thread, in so many words):

So the main point to me is this --- being the guest of a member trumps every other consideration when one is fortunate enough to be such a guest.  One should not make irrelevant visits to the pro shop, or indeed do anything except exactly what your member host asks you to do. 

Context is important my friend.  Read all and cite correctly or my seconds will be contacting yours.

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:17:17 PM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2009, 05:17:45 PM »
Well, I didn't say it the first time, and I guess I was one who didn't get the humor the next time, so I'll say it this time instead:

Well said, Gib.

We have a real problem on this site, and in the world at large. Few people grant any sort of implicit trust to others whose viewpoints differ from their own. My parents taught me early to try hard to think of everything from the other person's viewpoint; seems today it is far more common to only think from one's own.

I get the feeling a lot of people would think Jerry Maguire is a bunch of schmaltz. But when he's giving the climactic speech, he says something very prescient: We live in a cynical world...a... cynical... world.

Posters on this site would do well to think the best of intentions from others rather than the worst. That's been my experience, anyway.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2009, 05:25:41 PM »
Well, I didn't say it the first time, and I guess I was one who didn't get the humor the next time, so I'll say it this time instead:

Well said, Gib.

We have a real problem on this site, and in the world at large. Few people grant any sort of implicit trust to others whose viewpoints differ from their own. My parents taught me early to try hard to think of everything from the other person's viewpoint; seems today it is far more common to only think from one's own.

I get the feeling a lot of people would think Jerry Maguire is a bunch of schmaltz. But when he's giving the climactic speech, he says something very prescient: We live in a cynical world...a... cynical... world.

Posters on this site would do well to think the best of intentions from others rather than the worst. That's been my experience, anyway.

It WAS my experience also... however... this site is imperfect in such.  Some participants do indeed not have the best intentions.  And it only takes one to ruin it for all.  That is, fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  I for one have been fooled too many times.

We do live in a cynical world.  And this forum is not outside of it.

And that does suck.

So I'd look at it another way... one really ought never to assume someone else knows he's kidding.  Spell it out until you know each other.

TH

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2009, 05:43:19 PM »
I believe the golf raters should be like restaurant reviewers and always go incognito.

It is WAAAAY to easy for a rater to get a special treatment which can easily influence their opinion of the course. You need to go incognito so that you can experience the course like how everyone else would experience it.

Before joining GCA I had no idea how the ratings game worked.  I'm beginning to learn, I think.  That having been said, in my opinion Richard has it exactly right.  Raters should go incognito, and they should pay their own way, either directly or by reimbursement of a member who's being charged.  They should refuse comps.  If they are doing the rating for a publication like Golf Digest, then Golf Digest should be paying for round and covering any legitimate incidental expenses of the rater.  That way everything can be kept on a real business-like level.  Regarding private clubs, if they don't want to let raters in who are not sponsored by a member, so be it.  They're private.

Regarding: "And he was the guy standing there and I believe may have participated in the shenanigans. We finally meet him after totally looking like aholes for not knowing who the pro was."  Jim, if you did not know the pro, how would you recognize the pro?  And why would not recognizing the pro make look like an ahole?  Or maybe I misunderstand the situation.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2009, 05:45:48 PM »
I don't having anything against raters and I don't particularly care how they go about accessing and then rating courses (can we slap an OT label on this thread?), but this notion of raters effectively doing the Lord's work is a bit much.  Sanctimonious crap, actually.  You like playing golf and are interested in golf course architecture--you get to do so, sometimes at courses you otherwise wouldn't have convenient access to and sometimes for free.  How is this altruistic?  And what would happen if the entire ratings apparatus fell apart?  Not much.  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:47:33 PM by Tim Pitner »

Tom Huckaby

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2009, 05:50:12 PM »
Carl:

This was addressed in the beginning of this thread, and has been addressed countless times in other threads devoted to this subject.

I agree in a perfect world golf course raters SHOULD go incognito, and the magazines SHOULD be paying for the golf.

However, there are many instances in which going incognito is impossible or at the very least very very difficult (some are cited in this thread); and the chances of magazines paying for this when they can do it without paying are absolutely nil.

So yes, it SHOULD be done as you say.  It just can't.  Golf courses (especially private clubs) are not restaurants, and the system is way too entrenched for magazines to start paying.

In any case yes, private clubs need not participate in any of this.  Many do not.

TH

ps - Tim I agree with you in general.  I just don't think anyone took it so far as to saying we're doing the Lord's work.   ;D

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #115 on: July 20, 2009, 05:53:34 PM »
Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

Not true.  i have been in private clubs all over the US and charged golf shop purchases back to my home club account.  Those club managers do not want to miss a sale!

Bill:  you can do that as you are a member at a private club. I cannot.  But yes I would guess plenty don't want to miss any sales.

Well hell, just charge it to me, I'll trust you!

A duel?  Six irons at 200 yards!

Tom Huckaby

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #116 on: July 20, 2009, 05:55:04 PM »
Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

Not true.  i have been in private clubs all over the US and charged golf shop purchases back to my home club account.  Those club managers do not want to miss a sale!

Bill:  you can do that as you are a member at a private club. I cannot.  But yes I would guess plenty don't want to miss any sales.

Well hell, just charge it to me, I'll trust you!

A duel?  Six irons at 200 yards!

LOL - love that duel - we'd both be eminently safe.
 ;D ;D

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #117 on: July 20, 2009, 05:56:30 PM »
Im not sure "incognito" matters or not.  I am not a rater, I have played lots of free golf in my day having worked in the business and I have payed for a lot of golf in my day.  In no way, at the end of the round, did whether or not I paid have any effect on what I thought of the course.

Sure, it played into discussions of "value" or how nice the staff was or whatever, but it has no bearing on the discussion of the course itself.  I think that rater has a duty to be objective regardless of whether he has paid for the golf, gotten access to a club, etc. 

I also think it is presumptuous to assume a rater who gets "comped" immediately sheds their ability/duty to be objective.  Perhaps some do, but I'm not sure  that a few bad apples can spoil the bushel. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2009, 06:55:06 PM »
Im not sure "incognito" matters or not.  I am not a rater, I have played lots of free golf in my day having worked in the business and I have payed for a lot of golf in my day.  In no way, at the end of the round, did whether or not I paid have any effect on what I thought of the course.

Sure, it played into discussions of "value" or how nice the staff was or whatever, but it has no bearing on the discussion of the course itself.  I think that rater has a duty to be objective regardless of whether he has paid for the golf, gotten access to a club, etc. 

I also think it is presumptuous to assume a rater who gets "comped" immediately sheds their ability/duty to be objective.  Perhaps some do, but I'm not sure  that a few bad apples can spoil the bushel. 

JC

The point is that raters should not even be tempted with free stuff as at the very least it appears as if they could be compromised.  All this stuff about travel and other incidental costs are irrelevant.  If magazines were serious about rating they would foot the bill and raters are incognito - it is as simple as that.  Any system where the rater is known and given the rated object/service for free is a compromised system and this should come as no surprise to anybody.  Whether or not the compromise of a golf rating system is terribly important I don't know.  It doesn't matter much to me because I could care less how a faceless group of low cappers rate a course.  It has no bearing on my decision making.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

tlavin

Re: How would you react?
« Reply #119 on: July 20, 2009, 07:25:54 PM »
Wow, four pages and 129 replies on raters getting their feelings hurt. :-\

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #120 on: July 20, 2009, 08:23:46 PM »
Wow, four pages and 129 replies on raters getting their feelings hurt. :-\

They have gone to defcon 4
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #121 on: July 20, 2009, 09:07:11 PM »
    This discussion makes no sense to me.  For a rater to get on a private club, presumably he needs an invite.  If he gets an invite from a member whom he knows, then there is no reason to call the pro to tell him you're coming.  That would be up to the member, if he so chose.  Any communicating with the club hierarchy should be done through the member.  Indeed, calling the pro is only a sign of self-important pomposity. 
     If the rater gains access to the club by trying to use his status, then, presumably, he called the pro.  Either the pro has authority from the club to invite raters, or he doesn't.  If the pro has authority, then the club will also have a policy regarding greens fees.  The pro won't be shy about charging, if that's the club's policy.  And, if the rater received an invite from a friend of a friend, it'd up to that member to announce that royalty has arrived, not the self-important rater.  In that situation, if the rater doesn't know his host, he should offer to pay.
     I don't see how this is a difficult question, unless pomposity trumps manners and common sense.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #122 on: July 20, 2009, 09:08:53 PM »
Im not sure "incognito" matters or not.  I am not a rater, I have played lots of free golf in my day having worked in the business and I have payed for a lot of golf in my day.  In no way, at the end of the round, did whether or not I paid have any effect on what I thought of the course.

Sure, it played into discussions of "value" or how nice the staff was or whatever, but it has no bearing on the discussion of the course itself.  I think that rater has a duty to be objective regardless of whether he has paid for the golf, gotten access to a club, etc. 

I also think it is presumptuous to assume a rater who gets "comped" immediately sheds their ability/duty to be objective.  Perhaps some do, but I'm not sure  that a few bad apples can spoil the bushel. 

JC

The point is that raters should not even be tempted with free stuff as at the very least it appears as if they could be compromised.  All this stuff about travel and other incidental costs are irrelevant.  If magazines were serious about rating they would foot the bill and raters are incognito - it is as simple as that.  Any system where the rater is known and given the rated object/service for free is a compromised system and this should come as no surprise to anybody.  Whether or not the compromise of a golf rating system is terribly important I don't know.  It doesn't matter much to me because I could care less how a faceless group of low cappers rate a course.  It has no bearing on my decision making.   

Ciao

How is a rater supposed to rate a new, private, golf course while being "incognito"?  Do they not have to give their identity to gain access to a club they would not otherwise be granted access to?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #123 on: July 20, 2009, 09:12:51 PM »
Carl:

This was addressed in the beginning of this thread, and has been addressed countless times in other threads devoted to this subject.

I agree in a perfect world golf course raters SHOULD go incognito, and the magazines SHOULD be paying for the golf.


TH

ps - Tim I agree with you in general.  I just don't think anyone took it so far as to saying we're doing the Lord's work.   ;D

Tom, Thanks for the info and insights.  Carl Johnson

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you react?
« Reply #124 on: July 20, 2009, 09:54:41 PM »
I don't having anything against raters and I don't particularly care how they go about accessing and then rating courses (can we slap an OT label on this thread?), but this notion of raters effectively doing the Lord's work is a bit much.  Sanctimonious crap, actually.  You like playing golf and are interested in golf course architecture--you get to do so, sometimes at courses you otherwise wouldn't have convenient access to and sometimes for free.  How is this altruistic?  And what would happen if the entire ratings apparatus fell apart?  Not much.  

Well said; the problem I had with Gib's post was what seemed to be an incredible sense of self importance.  The truth is 99% of golfers would give their "left nut" to become a rater.
 
I do not know Gib from Adam and I get the feeling that he does a great job; if every rater....no....if every golfer loved and respected the game the way he does then our great game would be in a much better place.

I am sure most Raters do very good work and have the best intentions...but COME ON.....if someone is skeptical of raters then that is well within their right and they probably have good reason to be as such. 

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