How would you react?

[mike_beene]

So is a comped round to a professional rater worthy of a 1099?

[Charlie Goerges]

There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so.  And demanding to do so in and of itself would be exceedingly weird in such a circumstance.

You could always do what Sonny Corleone did with the photographer at his sister's wedding, toss a couple hundreds on the ground and walk away.


 

[Gib_Papazian]

Greg,

The phrasing of your question annoys me to no end. To wit-less:

If all of the requisite information can be obtained without identifying yourself then what possibly could be the "puropose" for introducing yourself as a panelist?

Hope for some form of specail treatment?
Seeking a discount or comp?
Feeling of self importance?

I shall impart a bit of wisdom on your newbie-osity given that the underlying implication (read: accusation) is one of specious intent. You have pissed me off, which is never a good thing when armed only with a slingshot and an inability to grasp the difference in spelling between a sense of "purpose" and my daughter's attempt to identify Flipper's marine cousin.

The level of intellect has plummeted so far since Barny was banished I can barely bring myself to wade through the pap.

Let me respond to your thoughtlessly inflammatory queries one at a time:

#1. The "specail" treatment I hope for is generally an answer to my questions regarding the history of the property, the eventual designer (because half the time the development went tapioca and another design firm came with the new owners), the long-range plans (like Morgan Creek) and the target demographic whether private or public.

#2. I NEVER expect a comp. If it is offered and I accept, I spend more damned money in the pro shop or bar than they would have ever snagged if I had payed the fees.  If they are operating out of trailers, I make a special effort to thank the head pro and pass out tips to the bag boys so as to ensure they have enough jing to buy a triple martini for the local hotties off work for the evening.

#3. Eat feces. And I mean that. How dare you insult those who try to identify the best new creations for the benefit of the readership? Tomorrow morning I am going to go to work and then drive three hours to play - and carefully rate - a golf course in the afternoon with the forecast at 106 degrees. Then, I am going to crash at the house of a close friend and tee it up at 9am and do it again 30 miles up the road.

It is a labor of LOVE out of respect for the game and the sheer joy of possibly finding another Barona Creek or Rustic Canyon or whatever hidden gem is waiting out there to be discovered by somebody who understands and appreciates the difference between eye candy and a cart girl with big boobs;  the kind of architecture where some unknown genius obsessed over every single detail with such love of their art that the end result makes your heart sing even as the sun beats your enthusiasm into the scorched earth.

That is why we do it. So zeros like you have something to argue about when the rankings come out whether you agree, disagree or try to hijack the thread into another pointless discussion about the history of Merion.

GCA has a spell chekker, try and usse itt.

Selah.
    

[Jim Franklin]

Gib -

You are the best. Well said. It is a labor of love. I know I spend way more money than most playing golf because I travel to a lot of places in the search for the next hidden gem. I may get free golf (most of the time), but hotels aren't free, gas isn't free, rental cars aren't free, and in order to support the pros' and their shops, my closet full of shirts are not free either. I understand there are some panelists that only want free golf, do not travel, and will never buy a shirt/hat/whatever because they are cheap. They give good, caring panelists a bad name.

[Carl Nichols]

Gib -

Well said.

Really?  I'm not a rater and don't work in the industry so don't have a dog in this fight, but "Eat feces.  I mean that." strikes me as just a little bit over the top .... particularly when even you, Jim, acknowledge that there may be some raters who do act with "specious intent."

[George Pazin]

Greg asked fair questions, and he's no newbie. Respect flows both ways. I don't care for the insinuations from the non-raters, but I also don't care for treating questioners poorly, either.

This is a good example of what I said when I see little good on this thread. And Brent is likely right about the extension to the rankings process at large as well.

[Jim Franklin]

Carl -

I admire Gib's mastery of the english language and his dedication to the game of golf.

[Jim Franklin]

Greg asked fair questions, and he's no newbie. Respect flows both ways. I don't care for the insinuations from the non-raters, but I also don't care for treating questioners poorly, either.

This is a good example of what I said when I see little good on this thread. And Brent is likely right about the extension to the rankings process at large as well.

George -

I certainly do not agree with where this thread is going and actually tried to pull it. But when you cannot contact a moderator to pull a thread, being a moderator is pointless. Who do I contact to pull a thread? If I recall correctly, it takes the initial person and a moderator. I don't know. I tried contacting Ben and Ran and they don't want to be bothered.

My initial purpose was to find out if anyone else had received that type of treatment from a pro in front of members. I can tell you, if our pro treated one of my guests like that, he would be fired.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm just happy we're only nine holes. 

[George Pazin]

Jim, I certainly can't help you with the thread being pulled, and I think your initial questions were fine. You were obviously treated poorly, undeservedly so, imo.

When I made my comment about seeing little good, it was born of years of seeing this type of thread deteriorate quickly, no matter how valid the original intent. Unfortunately this issue tends to be one that most only see one side of, their own.

I thought Gib's original post on this thread was fantastic, almost posted a "well said, Gib" myself. But I know Greg is a terrific poster, and the fact that he chose to ask pointed questions because he happens to work on the other side of the issue doesn't mean he (or anyone else) deserves an inappropriate response.

[Jim Franklin]

George -

Understandable.

[Michael Blake]

I thought Gib's original post on this thread was fantastic, almost posted a "well said, Gib" myself. But I know Greg is a terrific poster, and the fact that he chose to ask pointed questions because he happens to work on the other side of the issue doesn't mean he (or anyone else) deserves an inappropriate response.

agreed

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

In the interest of fairness, amicability and fellowship here in the Treehouse, please allow me amend my previous upbraiding of Mr. Tallman:

Greg,

Eat porpoise poop.

With a snorkel.  


In all seriousness, it rankles my dander anytime I read a civilian casting aspersions about our army. Rating a golf course correctly is intellectually challenging and hardly a six-pack cruise in a cart. Doubtless there are bad eggs out there, but the vast majority of us spend a lot of money and time in pursuit of what is essentially a pro bono part time job.

This opinion might be unpopular, but most people are simply not capable of rating a golf course beyond spitting out a number based on little more than a visceral impression. The reason is that very few people REALLY LOOK at the details of a golf course. It is absolutely necessary to first deconstruct the individual elements of each hole, visually reassemble it in your mind and evaluate how it all works together.

Eighteen times in a row.

Which is why I rarely play for score when doing a rating. If my tee shot is hopelessly errant, I'll often toss it back in the fairway so I can get a feel for how the hole actually plays. If there is nobody out there and I come across a particularly interesting putting surface, I putt around for a few minutes to different pin positions out of curiosity to how the ball reacts. That is why I strive for late afternoon tee times when making arrangements and walk the golf course whenever possible. I've opined in the past with respect to the difficulty of trying to contemplate art from a cart path adjacent to the flow of the topography.

So, to get back to the original reason for my post, a "feeling of self importance" is the furthest thing from my mind when scribbling impressions on my way around the golf course.  

[Charlie Goerges]

Gib,

I'm interested in your take on how you do a rating. You mentioned that if you are hopelessly errant, you'll toss the ball back in play, or you'll putt to multiple possible hole locations. You also mentioned late-afternoon tee times.

I'm not a rater, but I've thought it might be best to do it similar to the way you do it, but maybe also limit the number of clubs one carries. Perhaps even limiting it to one club and a few balls. This way walking would be very easy, and one would have the time and energy to play shots from a variety of positions. Is there any validity to this kind of method? (In order to simulate driver distance on a long hole, one could play up a couple sets of tees)

[John_Conley]

In all seriousness, it rankles my dander anytime I read a civilian casting aspersions about our army.

But not every time.  Nobody carries greater disdain for raters than Kavanaugh, and you're quick to side with him.

[Gib_Papazian]

Charlie,

Interesting concept and one I have never thought of. Walking around a golf course with five or six clubs and trying shots from different spots might introduce a different perspective. Again, I do not pay any attention to my scores so your idea may help simulate the experience of different skill abilities.

John,

I ought to forward you the flaming ass rippings I've inflicted on Barny for his piss poor behavior, nasty lack of contrition and disgraceful treatment of my pal Huckster.

Just because Kavanaugh and I are friends does mean I condone his scatological lunacy.   

[Mike Sweeney]

It is a labor of love. I know I spend way more money than most playing golf because I travel to a lot of places in the search for the next hidden gem. I may get free golf (most of the time), but hotels aren't free, gas isn't free, rental cars aren't free, and in order to support the pros' and their shops, my closet full of shirts are not free either. I understand there are some panelists that only want free golf, do not travel, and will never buy a shirt/hat/whatever because they are cheap. They give good, caring panelists a bad name.

Mr Hurricane,

Somebody has to call you out on this one!

Hidden Gems?

Big Guy, did someone put away your Big Trophy Hunting Gun?  

On the original premise, come on. This is no "Top 100" course looking for raters. This is a course that IS a staple of the Big Trophy  Club. On an average week, how many of the 1000+ raters from Golf Digest, Golf Week and Golf Magazine are calling this pro for access? Listen I am no saint here, but come on, I embrace the insanity of my Top 10itis (no Top 100itis for me).

[Sean_A]

Greg,

The phrasing of your question annoys me to no end. To wit-less:

If all of the requisite information can be obtained without identifying yourself then what possibly could be the "puropose" for introducing yourself as a panelist?

Hope for some form of specail treatment?
Seeking a discount or comp?
Feeling of self importance?

I shall impart a bit of wisdom on your newbie-osity given that the underlying implication (read: accusation) is one of specious intent. You have pissed me off, which is never a good thing when armed only with a slingshot and an inability to grasp the difference in spelling between a sense of "purpose" and my daughter's attempt to identify Flipper's marine cousin.

The level of intellect has plummeted so far since Barny was banished I can barely bring myself to wade through the pap.

Let me respond to your thoughtlessly inflammatory queries one at a time:

#1. The "specail" treatment I hope for is generally an answer to my questions regarding the history of the property, the eventual designer (because half the time the development went tapioca and another design firm came with the new owners), the long-range plans (like Morgan Creek) and the target demographic whether private or public.

#2. I NEVER expect a comp. If it is offered and I accept, I spend more damned money in the pro shop or bar than they would have ever snagged if I had payed the fees.  If they are operating out of trailers, I make a special effort to thank the head pro and pass out tips to the bag boys so as to ensure they have enough jing to buy a triple martini for the local hotties off work for the evening.

#3. Eat feces. And I mean that. How dare you insult those who try to identify the best new creations for the benefit of the readership? Tomorrow morning I am going to go to work and then drive three hours to play - and carefully rate - a golf course in the afternoon with the forecast at 106 degrees. Then, I am going to crash at the house of a close friend and tee it up at 9am and do it again 30 miles up the road.

It is a labor of LOVE out of respect for the game and the sheer joy of possibly finding another Barona Creek or Rustic Canyon or whatever hidden gem is waiting out there to be discovered by somebody who understands and appreciates the difference between eye candy and a cart girl with big boobs;  the kind of architecture where some unknown genius obsessed over every single detail with such love of their art that the end result makes your heart sing even as the sun beats your enthusiasm into the scorched earth.

That is why we do it. So zeros like you have something to argue about when the rankings come out whether you agree, disagree or try to hijack the thread into another pointless discussion about the history of Merion.

GCA has a spell chekker, try and usse itt.

Selah.
    

Gib

Didn't your wife sit on your shirt tail this morning?

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

Not true.  i have been in private clubs all over the US and charged golf shop purchases back to my home club account.  Those club managers do not want to miss a sale!

[Bill_McBride]

This thread is actually very confusing to me, because I think it intermingles being a guest at a private club -- which I done a fair amount of, and reciprocated a fair amount of -- and magazine rating -- which I have done none of.

Huckaby adds yet a third wrinkle by throwing in course rating by a state association, and that is a complete and total non sequiteur as well as red herring.  How often would someone rating a course and wearing that cute shirt logo also be a guest of a member?

So the main point to me is this --- being the guest of a member trumps every other consideration when one is fortunate enough to be such a guest.  One should not make irrelevant visits to the pro shop, or indeed do anything except exactly what your member host asks you to do. 

If he says meet me naked in the locker room, I would be there at the appointed hour naked in the locker room.  (This is not a pretty picture, but have a martini and get over it!).

Following this simple rule would have avoided all of the unpleasantness and uncertainty and recriminations that Jim mentions in his original post and which has engendered a three page thread that -- in true GCA.com OT fashion -- is becoming acrimonious.  Follow my simple guidance and this will never happen.

[Mike Sweeney]

So the main point to me is this --- being the guest of a member trumps every other consideration when one is fortunate enough to be such a guest.  One should not make irrelevant visits to the pro shop, or indeed do anything except exactly what your member host asks you to do. 

Bingo.

But I think I will skip the shower!

[Bill_McBride]

So the main point to me is this --- being the guest of a member trumps every other consideration when one is fortunate enough to be such a guest.  One should not make irrelevant visits to the pro shop, or indeed do anything except exactly what your member host asks you to do. 

Bingo.

But I think I will skip the shower!

Just making a point!   

[Dan Herrmann]

Just an observation from a non-rater.  I've been treated best at some of the country's best clubs, and worst at some of the most average CCFADs.   To me, the best clubs have nothing to prove, so there's none of that 'nouveaux riche' BS.

[Mike Jansen]

As someone who plays a lot of comped golf, and see a lot of comped golf at my club... their behavior is really unacceptable.  When a playing a round at a private club or resort, its best to contact the head pro well in advance, know him at least by name, be very clear what is being set up (time & cost), a bottle of wine to the pro is a nice (and common gesture) and make sure to grease the staff/ starter.  It can be an intimidating situation and you'd like it to go as smooth as possible, if the club you played was worth a s**t their service would have been top notch.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

The phrasing of your question annoys me to no end. To wit-less:

If all of the requisite information can be obtained without identifying yourself then what possibly could be the "puropose" for introducing yourself as a panelist?

Hope for some form of specail treatment?
Seeking a discount or comp?
Feeling of self importance?

I shall impart a bit of wisdom on your newbie-osity given that the underlying implication (read: accusation) is one of specious intent. You have pissed me off, which is never a good thing when armed only with a slingshot and an inability to grasp the difference in spelling between a sense of "purpose" and my daughter's attempt to identify Flipper's marine cousin.

The level of intellect has plummeted so far since Barny was banished I can barely bring myself to wade through the pap.

Let me respond to your thoughtlessly inflammatory queries one at a time:

#1. The "specail" treatment I hope for is generally an answer to my questions regarding the history of the property, the eventual designer (because half the time the development went tapioca and another design firm came with the new owners), the long-range plans (like Morgan Creek) and the target demographic whether private or public.

#2. I NEVER expect a comp. If it is offered and I accept, I spend more damned money in the pro shop or bar than they would have ever snagged if I had payed the fees.  If they are operating out of trailers, I make a special effort to thank the head pro and pass out tips to the bag boys so as to ensure they have enough jing to buy a triple martini for the local hotties off work for the evening.

#3. Eat feces. And I mean that. How dare you insult those who try to identify the best new creations for the benefit of the readership? Tomorrow morning I am going to go to work and then drive three hours to play - and carefully rate - a golf course in the afternoon with the forecast at 106 degrees. Then, I am going to crash at the house of a close friend and tee it up at 9am and do it again 30 miles up the road.

It is a labor of LOVE out of respect for the game and the sheer joy of possibly finding another Barona Creek or Rustic Canyon or whatever hidden gem is waiting out there to be discovered by somebody who understands and appreciates the difference between eye candy and a cart girl with big boobs;  the kind of architecture where some unknown genius obsessed over every single detail with such love of their art that the end result makes your heart sing even as the sun beats your enthusiasm into the scorched earth.

That is why we do it. So zeros like you have something to argue about when the rankings come out whether you agree, disagree or try to hijack the thread into another pointless discussion about the history of Merion.

GCA has a spell chekker, try and usse itt.

Selah.
    

Gib,

With all due respect (an I mean that) YOUR intentions may be vastly different than the majority I have encountered over the years. Rather than beat around the bush I chose to come and and raise the direct question that others danced around. Your attack was both unwarranted and unprofessional. This is a DISCUSSION and you can only benefit by understanding what facility owners and operators perceive of visiting panelists from time to time.

Having raised what I did I can say that some of the panelists I have come across are some of the finest people and most well intentioned purists of the game one can imagine and among some of my closest friends. We have the discussion that the board is attempting to have on a regular basis without agreeing entirely on protocol or hurting one another's feelings with frank commentary.

If I have upset you (a more appropriate way to express it here) then I apologize. Perhaps you, Jim and Huck could take it upon yourselves to educate the hundreds of others who may or may not have the same purist passions for the game or respect for what it is they are actually trying to accomplish. Having read your comments on here before I have no doubt you are well intentioned but YOU ARE ONE PERSON among several hundred and may not be totally representative of the masses. I truly hope you get that fact. There was nothing personal in my post, not a single thing and why you took it as such is honestly puzzling.

As for labeling someone a zero, well to each his own. I will choose to take the high road and invite you to be my guest at our facility at any time of your choosing. Sorry no flashy cart girls here but I would be happy to pull out the mountain of plans that has taken our courses from the original designs to where they are today and even take you through where they will be in future years. May then I can rise above a zero on your ratings scale... one can only hope.

Respectfully,

Gregory Tallman
Cabo del Sol  

Just for the record as a facility in a highly traveled destination (at least in the past) we have instituted a policy for ratings panelists that is identical to that for visiting PGA Professionals and GCSAA Members and I would think that about as fair as one could be. Some panelists have chosen to view this policy as a slap in the face... what can one do?

Additionally we recetly hosted a panelist summit with about 30 panelists playing so one should not take from this topic that I/we are anti-panelist only that some do not go about it correctly.

Even after rereading Gib's response, and wincing several times, I would flatly state that if all apnelists were like Gib then we would likely not be having this discussion.   

If anyone would be so kind as to point out where the spell chech feature is I would be appreciative as it would help me avoid angering anyone else on the board. Gib, Did you really think "puropose" was anything other than a typing issue?