How would you react?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I am in no way trying to be offensive but I am sure you can gain access to a new golf club, even though it is Private.  Having to tell them you are a rater is just one of multiple ways to get on a course of that nature.  

Write a letter telling them you would like to play...
Have your pro call....
Call the real estate office...
And the list goes on......

I agree that membership has it's privelages and all the power to you for being a rater; sometimes life isn't fair to the rest of us....oh well.

Kenny:

Hmmm.. those might work for some people, for sure.  But I am a member myself at no private club, so having my pro call is out... and my income level would make the real estate offices at these places laugh hysterically, so that's out... writing a letter MIGHT work, but generally does not in my experience... not coming from Joe Q. Average, public course player....

So yes, sure, other ways COULD happen.  But none are very practical, not for me anyway.

Not sure what you mean by your last part.  But no hassles, no offense taken by any of this.  I am just trying to explain how it works some times in the real world.

TH

[George Pazin]

Tom,

I am in no way trying to be offensive but I am sure you can gain access to a new golf club, even though it is Private.  Having to tell them you are a rater is just one of multiple ways to get on a course of that nature.  

Write a letter telling them you would like to play...Do you know Tom didn't?
Have your pro call....Some of us aren't members of private clubs
Call the real estate office...Isn't this misrepresenting yourself in a manner far worse than being a rater?
And the list goes on......

I agree that membership has it's privelages and all the power to you for being a rater; sometimes life isn't fair to the rest of us....oh well.

There's a lot going on in this thread, little of it good.

[Brent Hutto]

There's a lot going on in this thread, little of it good.

IMO the same could be said of the entire golf-course rating business.

[Kevin_Reilly]

And they did not know we were panelists when they started the "I don't know, have you seen..." crap. Being a panelist had nothing to do with the way we were treated. We could have been guests just wanting to thank the pro or tell him how much we enjoyed the course.

This is a strange incident, and I am trying to re-create how this would have played out at clubs which I am familiar.

When did you alert the pro or the pro shop staff to your rater status?  Iin the first post, you mentioned that you never spoke to the pro in advance of coming (you called but never spoke to him...did you leave a message for him, or speak to someone else?), and in the quoted post above you clarified that the staff didn't know you were panelists when they did the vaudeville routine.  So when did you and your partner tell them you were raters...your round got comped so it must have come up some time?

Can you clarify how well you and the other rater know the member - was his hosting you a favor, or does he know you?

I'll say if I hosted a guest and the guest came into the club and told the staff that they were a rater, or PGA member (either message could be construed as a request for a comp or special treatment), I'd feel very awkward as the host. 

[Kenny Baer]

I just meant that being a rater is a privelage, it is cool, many many would like to do it; I doubt any magazine has to beg individuals to become raters.  An advantage of being a rater is being able to play free golf; that advantage is also a reason that many people take golf course ratings with a grain of salt.



1.I don't know he didn't; but it was reasonable to read his statement  and gather that he was implying there was no other way for him to get on these said golf courses
2. Any pro can call; if you are a rater for Golf Digest you should have a place you play enough that the pro should know who you are and would call another course for you.
3. Real Estate people need to show their product to the public; if the buyer is not qualified that does not hurt anyone; if the place impressed him enough then he may mention it to buyers that are qualified.  I never said call up and say you are a millionaire looking to purchase 2 or 3 lots.

[Richard Choi]

Shiv, you can do everything you mentioned without letting them know that you are a rater.

Just tell them that you are traveling from a far away and you can pretty much do everything you listed without announcing who you are. I just think pre-announcing that you are coming is a wrong way to go when you are about to rate a course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kenny:

Ok, I get ya I guess.  I just never said, nor implied, that being a rater was anything but a privilige - it certainly is.  I was just trying to explain how it works at times, such that the "always go anonymous" and "always pay" are at the very least not realistic.  You read this as me asking for sympathy, I guess.  It was FAR from my intent.

But also, none of what you suggest would indeed work in this instance.  These are very high-end, quite ultra-private courses.

TH

[Mark Pritchett]

How ultra-private is a course that grants access to raters? 

I like the old saying that golf courses in the UK are thought of as great by how many people want and get to play them and in the USA courses are deemed great by how many people can not play them.

[Kenny Baer]

I hear you;

I never thought you were looking for sympathy I was just incorrectly implying that if you really wanted to you could access the course without saying you were a rater.  I believe you that you can't; but I would think for most newer golf courses that is more the exception than the rule; especially in this economic climate.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark:

LOL!  Touche.  I guess I used the wrong term.  Change it to "ultra-private, but want to be considered for Best New Courses ranking."

 

Quite seriously, they accept raters for now because they want the notoriety - and perhaps increase in membership numbers - that a high ranking might bring.  Once this process is done, I believe that's it for us scum.



Kenny:

Thanks. It's all good.  In general I think you are very correct.  However, I was trying to refute the notion one could ALWAYS go anonymously... thus I gave an example where it can't be done.  That's it.


TH

[Bruce Katona]

We comp people (guests, raters, etc) all the time.  What is nice is to hear from the person who was our guest for the day, thanking us for their day out and:

Did they have a good time....if not, why
how was the course...if something was not up to snuff tell us
was the staff helpful...if not who needs additional training
was their meal and restaurant service adequate....if not what was wrong
did the staff treat them and make them fell like members....if not that staff needs additional training

Takes 5-20 minutes on a phone call or e-mail...simple.....no more is necessary.

[Michael Moore]

That is standard operating procedure for Golf Digest panel.

I assume it must be for the others too, as it is just common courtesy.

Tom -

So, before you write a bad review and piss all over a course you didn't like, it's "common courtesy" to send a thank-you note to the pro?

[Tom Huckaby]

That is standard operating procedure for Golf Digest panel.

I assume it must be for the others too, as it is just common courtesy.

Tom -

So, before you write a bad review and piss all over a course you didn't like, it's "common courtesy" to send a thank-you note to the pro?

LOL
I write no reviews myself, so have no chance to piss all over any.

But the common courtesy would have to be that if one grants you a favor, one offers thanks for such.  Doing such in written form is a nice way to do it.

[Joel_Stewart]

I always call before I go.

My point is many of these top 100 courses keep track of who plays.  If the course drops 20 spots and the pro has no record of any panelists playing, then it raises questions.  GD could look in the file and say Tom Huckaby played here in June and the pro could say, no he didn't???

Tom:  I think the polite thing would have been to introduce yourself to the head pro at Olympic.  I know he keeps tabs.  The pro can be a valuable source of information as well.

[Tom Huckaby]

I always call before I go.

My point is many of these top 100 courses keep track of who plays.  If the course drops 20 spots and the pro has no record of any panelists playing, then it raises questions.  GD could look in the file and say Tom Huckaby played here in June and the pro could say, no he didn't???

Tom:  I think the polite thing would have been to introduce yourself to the head pro at Olympic.  I know he keeps tabs.  The pro can be a valuable source of information as well.

Interesting, I never thought of it that way at all.

Just remember, I was there as part of the NCGA course rating team.  It still seems damn weird that I cease that, seek out the pro, tell him I am also a Golf Digest rater.  I was there not under the auspices of GD at all.  That to me smacks of grandstanding more than any politeness.

I also can't imagine that Olympic Club is suffering for lack of rater visits; nor did I get that they must have a complete inventory of all who have seen it.  Good god, I can't be the only one who's played it in a tournament or as a guest and not made a big deal out of it...

 

I shall have to mull this over.

Just note one more thing - OClub does have a record I was there - they most definitely have a list of the NCGA guys who were there that day.

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

Tom, if you notified Chris S that you were a rater, they would have sent a forecaddie out with you to tend to your needs (help finding balls, fetch a burger or drink, clean clubs etc).  Also, you would have had a hole cleared ahead and behind you, so you could play without the distraction of feeling rushed.  Maybe next time you'll take advantage of this.  It is sort of like ordering off the secret menu at In n Out...unadvertised goodness.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, if you notified Chris S that you were a rater, they would have sent a forecaddie out with you to tend to your needs (help finding balls, fetch a burger or drink, clean clubs etc).  Also, you would have had a hole cleared ahead and behind you, so you could play without the distraction of feeling rushed.  Maybe next time you'll take advantage of this.  It is sort of like ordering off the secret menu at In n Out...unadvertised goodness.

LOL!!!!

Guess I really blew it.

 

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

I've known Chris (AKA "Steiner") forever and three days dating back to high school. There is a Burlingame High School golf team connect with a good number of us including Chris, Joby Ross (Dir. Instruction Mariner's Point) and Nate Crosby.

The last thing Chris is concerned with is whether this rater or that rater may or may not have agreed or disagreed with Olympic's placement on the ladder. He is simply an unbelievably nice guy who is totally unaffected by his post or power. When he walks in the door, everybody's blood pressure goes down 20 points - unlike most autocratic head professionals.

BTW: The harshest critics of the indefensibly ham-handed work on our beloved golf courses comes from the dues paying members, several of which post here or frequently lurk.

 

[Greg Tallman]

What prupose does it serve to introdcuce yourself as a panelist? Seriously what is the purpose?

Before the round:

Well, as Huck said, when it's private and you have no other way to get on it, or even if it's public and you're traveling a gazillion miles, so you want to make sure you have a game or that they don't set you up with 3 first-time hackers (sorry, but it happens), then you pretty much have to.

Or maybe you want to talk to the super or the pro about something (like the recent changes to the course that might be the reason for your visit in the first place) and you want to make sure they'll be there.

After the round:

To say thank you - if the pro wasn't there when you teed off.

There can also be all sorts of other reasons.  Let's say you're in Town X and you don't know the area very well.  And you're there for a few days on business.  Maybe you'd just want to ask the pro something as innocuous as "was today's wind the prevailing wind?" or "hey, I'm in town for a couple days.  What other courses do you like around here...maybe something under the radar or a hidden gem worth seeing?" or "have you ever seen anybody carry the dogleg on Hole No. __"  or whatever...

Or hell, even non-golf stuff like:   "who's got the best burger in town?" or "know any good dive bars with a nice HDTV to watch the ballgame tonight?"

Maybe you think the course is waaaaaaayyyyy underrated and are just curious how many other raters have seen his course recently since the revisions.

There can be all sorts of reasons.

This is all a matter of individual discretion and good ettiquite - whether you're there as a rater or as a guest or both, whatever the case may be.     

Are such inquiries unique to a panelist? Can you average Jow who happens to be a good player/visitor not make the same requests?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Just for you, regards my last post, which perhaps should have read as follows.

 ;)There you go again telling me off for not having any idea how it works in the USA. 

Serious comment. The point I suppose is who wants the review, the club or an outside organisation. If the club is not interested, then a problem, as we should respect the privacy of these private clubs. However if it is for the Senior Management then there are ways it can be achieved. Anyone involved in Blue Chip business will know of the secret internal surveys and reports that are undertaken on behalf of the Chairman or the CEO. It’s a question of wheels within wheels. 

 ;)You need to cool my friend,  it’s only a discussion group .

Melvyn

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

WHEW.  We're on the same page.  Sorry about that my friend.

Now as for the serious comment....

In the vast majority of instances, the courses invite these rater evaluations.  Oh there are some who shun it - and thus don't get evaluated.  But most of the time they do indeed welcome it if not seek it out.

But the main thing about my point is that in some instances here in the US anyway there really is no way to play the course at all without asking permission... and in those cases one obviously can't be anonymous. That was all I meant to point out.

I think one and all agree it's a very imperfect system.  If it went away, few would miss it.  But magazines want to compile these rankings, and courses want to be ranked.. so we do the best we can.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I did understand.

I am – I wonder if I dare say it - in part agreement with Brent when he posted ‘the same could be said of the entire golf-course rating business’.

Based upon “One mans meat ….is another’s poison” sort of thing. A general list can be as destructive and as compromised as Proportional representation. I do not believe they are worth the paper they are printed upon – but that just my opinion.

Melvyn

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvvyn:

Well that has been a common take in this forum for many years, and outside of this forum as well.

It just does seem like its another situation where done is done, another genie not going back into another bottle.  Magazines do love these ratings and courses perhaps do not love the system, but they generally love the results if they are favorable.  So whereas they do likely do far more harm than good, rankings do continue to happen.

And thus we discuss the process.

TH

[Greg Tallman]

Are such inquiries unique to a panelist? Can you average Jow who happens to be a good player/visitor not make the same requests?

Greg:  this is a perfectly reasonable question...which is why I answered it in Reply #45 and 65.

So I return to my original question.

If all of the requisite information can be obtained without identifying yourself then what possibly could be the puropose for introduciing yourself as a panelist?

Hope for some form of specail treatment?
Seeking a discount or comp?
Feeling of self importance?

My point is simple, I see no real benefit or need to introduce yourself as a panelist unless you are looking for something. Professional people will give you what you need based ssolely on the fact that they are thrilled to have you as a guest at their facility.

This in no way suggests that those who do introduce themselves are looking for something but I am simply suggesting that to be the case far more oftenthan not. 

Then again it is better than the guys that slap down their panelist card in front of one of my staff and demand a freebie/discount (after regsitering with CC on line). Anyone care to guess how that was resolved?

I have zero problem with a panelist who phones in advance and simply inquires as to our policy on charging INSERT MAGAZINE rating panelists.

[Joel_Stewart]

When he walks in the door, everybody's blood pressure goes down 20 points - unlike most autocratic head professionals.

I love that quote.  Makes me think of this asshole boss I use to have which raised everyone blood pressure everytime she walked in.

With that said, Chris is still the gatekeeper at Olympic and keeps track of such things.  He also compiles all the data about all the different types of play (members, guests, pros, raters, etc.) into a spread sheet which is sent around monthly.