[Jim Franklin]

I was playing a well known course with another GD panelist when this situation occured. We were the guests of a member, but we called the pro a few weeks before just to let him know we were going to be there as a courtesy. We never spoke to him. When we arrived at the club, we went to the pro shop to introduce ourselves. There were 6 people in the shop, a couple of members, the pro (it turns out), and a fwe assistants. We asked is x was there and this is what followed.

"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I am not sure, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"Oh here he is"

And he was the guy standing there and I believe may have participated in the shenanigans. We finally meet him after totally looking like aholes for not knowing who the pro was.

We wanted to introduce ourselves as a courtesy since we had called him a few weeks before. We were not looking for a freebie, but he comped us anyway. I find out later that HE was upset at us for coming in looking for a freebie which in turn has made my host upset. How would this make you feel?

[JC Jones]

I was playing a well known course with another GD panelist when this situation occured. We were the guests of a member, but we called the pro a few weeks before just to let him know we were going to be there as a courtesy. We never spoke to him. When we arrived at the club, we went to the pro shop to introduce ourselves. There were 6 people in the shop, a couple of members, the pro (it turns out), and a fwe assistants. We asked is x was there and this is what followed.

"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I am not sure, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"Oh here he is"

And he was the guy standing there and I believe may have participated in the shenanigans. We finally meet him after totally looking like aholes for not knowing who the pro was.

We wanted to introduce ourselves as a courtesy since we had called him a few weeks before. We were not looking for a freebie, but he comped us anyway. I find out later that HE was upset at us for coming in looking for a freebie which in turn has made my host upset. How would this make you feel?

Like the whole thing was a big miscommunication.  Although I'm not sure if the old boys treatment was necessary.  Just because you dont know the pro doesn't mean they have to be asses.

[Mark Woodger]

very irritiated. I feel irritated for you. Its not welcoming to guests at all particularly when you are arriving at a club you have not been to before and that in itself can be intimidating! I think it would be embarassing that a members guests are treated in such a way and does not reflect very well on those concerned. Totally unacceptable behaviour in my view and if they do want to f*ck around like that at least say afterwards "sorry guys we were just messing around"

As to how i would react i would smile and say nice to meet you.

[John_Conley]

We wanted to introduce ourselves as a courtesy since we had called him a few weeks before. We were not looking for a freebie, but he comped us anyway. I find out later that HE was upset at us for coming in looking for a freebie which in turn has made my host upset. How would this make you feel?

I think this was construed as looking for a comped visit.

How would I react?  Not much you can do.  Apologize, let them know that was not your intent, and try to make amends with your host.

[George Pazin]

Sounds like he probably would have been equally upset had you not bothered to introduce yourselves.

[Eric Smith]

Call him and ask him to explain to the member what happened.  If you didn't 'ask' for a freebie, then how is one 'looking for' a freebie?

Going into the pro shop to say hello to the pro should not have led to this.

Don't let him off the hook Jim.  Insist on clearing this up with the facts...your host will appreciate it.  JMO

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - they were pricks for giving you that treatment, obviously.

But I am curious.. if you were guests of a member, why did you feel you had to call the pro to let him know you would be there?  Please understand I am NOT trying to open up any can of worms and I have every belief that you treat these things as perfectly as anyone can - I have seen such in action.

It's just that in similar situations where I have been a guest of a member, I never even thought to get the pro or anyone else involved.  Do they really need to know if us raters are gonna be on the premises?

NOTE I AM ASKING THIS FOR ADVICE, AS YOU ARE WAY WAY WAY MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I AM AT THIS.  That's before others jump on this and get on Jim, or me.  I assume I am the wrong one in any case.

Tom H.

[Cabell Ackerly]

I'll ask the same question as Tom...why even bother contacting the pro?

[Anthony Gray]

  Personally...I think it is always better to simply pay. Even if they offer it free I prefer to politely say "i would prefer to pay if that is OK with you". This way nobody can question your intentions. It makes the situation more confortable for all and in return I have found the fellowship is better. If something gets comped or is for gratis I make sure I find some way to repay the jesture. Either by buying something in the proshop or a gift in the mail later.

  Peace,

  Anthony

[Mark Pritchett]

I would think a pro would appreciate a "heads up" from a rater, even when playing with a member.  That way the pro doesn't feel ambushed by a panelist.

[Chris Cupit]

Jim,

I think the staff behaved boorishly towards you.  They were rude to guests and that is just wrong.  However, let me tell you what I think was going through their minds--again, this is not to excuse their behaviour in any way.

You said you were not looking for a freebie but you made the point before playing of mentioning that you are a rater.  Nothing pisses off many (and I am not saying it should or shouldn't) in the industry more than the "hello, I'm a rater" intro as that is obvious code for "and I expect a freebie". 

You must know that when you drop the "rater" tag that alone indicates a hope for a comp.  The staff acted liked jerks BUT as a guest you should in NO WAY escalate this issue with your host.  Your host was kind enough to have you for the day and it is bad manners to bring up what the staff did.  You wouldn't go to a dinner party and tell the host his caterer overcooked the meat would you?

I have hosted and comped every rater who showed up to play.  95% were nice and 5% made me swear I'd never have another rater again.  In any case though, no matter how much anyone may bother someone, you should always treat people with kindness and respect.  I would make one suggestion for the rating community:

If possible insist that whomever you are rating for requires you to at least pay a cart fee and for any food, beverage or souveniers.  Also, send a thank you note afterwards--not an e-mail, not popping inthe office to say "thanks" but a pen and paper note.  That goes a long way.

Last piece of advice.  If you are the guest of a member, the fees have been taken care of.  The member may choose to ask his club if a discount or comp is allowed for but the simple act of the "Im a rater intro" makes you and maybe even your host look like they want preferential treatment.

A heads up is not necessary when playing with a member--as any guest of any member you should be welcomed.  The staff was 100% wrong but as soon as you (in their minds) acted like a "more important guest" they showed their asses. 

[Tom Huckaby]

  Personally...I think it is always better to simply pay. Even if they offer it free I prefer to politely say "i would prefer to pay if that is OK with you". This way nobody can question your intentions. It makes the situation more confortable for all and in return I have found the fellowship is better. If something gets comped or is for gratis I make sure I find some way to repay the jesture. Either by buying something in the proshop or a gift in the mail later.

  Peace,

  Anthony

Well... as a guest, I tend to do what my host wants; obviously one always offers to pay, but there are times that's not accepted.  As a course rating panelist, I do what the course or club (the host in that instance) requires, or what seems right.  This has been beaten to death in here - many think us course rating panelists are vile and evil because god forbid we do accept comps now and then - but rest assured, my experience is pretty much all do treat this correctly.  And it's usually just as you say, Anthony.

However I don't think the comp or no comp is the issue in this thread.  Remember Jim was the guest of a member.

Seems weird to me he was treated as he was.

But I also require education as to why he felt the need to call the pro.  Jim is a VERY good egg; I figure such education is forthcoming.



MARK - hmmmmmmmm... what do you mean by "ambushed"?  In situations like that, all I've done is play, then submit a confidential evaluation.  Please clarify.  And again I am not arguing, just trying to learn.

CHRIS - thanks for that.  It's for exactly the reaction you state that I assumed NOT identifying one's self was a better way to go.  But again, I feel confident Jim did the right thing, as he always doe.  Some other specifics/facts must be involved in this case.

[Carl Nichols]

However I don't think the comp or no comp is the issue in this thread.  Remember Jim was the guest of a member.

Tom:

Why do you say that?  This is not to excuse in any way how Jim was treated, but perhaps the pro shop was thinking (incorrectly) that Jim was hoping that the member wouldn't have to pay the guest fee (and for all they know, Jim had arranged to pay the member back for any guest fee).

I recently had a long conversation with the GM of a formerly top 100 club about ratings and raters.  They have had many internal discussions about the whole process, and have decided to be somewhat more rater friendly these days.  It was a very interesting discussion in many ways, but as relevant here, I think it's fair to say that he and the club are very sensitive to rater behavior....

[Richard Choi]

I believe the golf raters should be like restaurant reviewers and always go incognito.

It is WAAAAY to easy for a rater to get a special treatment which can easily influence their opinion of the course. You need to go incognito so that you can experience the course like how everyone else would experience it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Carl:

Chris Cupit explains the thinking well, and I completely buy that.  So the perception of a comp is part of the issue here for sure. I get that.

What I meant was in the context of what Anthony Gray said - Jim was already "comped" more or less - that is, he was a guest of a member, so what he pays (or not) is between him and his host.  So in that context, Jim's actions ought not to be questioned.

In the larger context of what the heck went on here, yes, Chris Cupit's words speak volumes.



Richard:

In general I'd agree with you.  However, here's a perfect example of why it doesn't work at times:  I have been assigned to evaluate two private clubs in Tahoe area for Best New for Golf Digest.  I have no way to get on either course outside of contacting them and requesting access.  Just how should I complete my assignment and go incognito?

TH

[Mark Pritchett]

Tom,

I am not suggesting you or any raters are ambushing any course or club.  I was thinking of when a local director of a golf club near where I live once mentioned to me that some raters showed up unannounced and he would have appreciated a little advance notice.  I suppose any pro or GM would like to make sure everything is tip top when their facilities are being inspected. 

Mark

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I am not suggesting you or any raters are ambushing any course or club.  I was thinking of when a local director of a golf club near where I live once mentioned to me that some raters showed up unannounced and he would have appreciated a little advance notice.  I suppose any pro or GM would like to make sure everything is tip top when their facilities are being inspected. 

Mark

Carl - gotcha.  OK obviously if access is an issue, advance notice is not only common courtesy, but seemingly required.  Showing up unannounced and demanding to play is beyond classless.  Sadly we have too many classless types in our ranks, or so it seems.

But that's not at all the case here, nor what I was asking about.  I was asking about a situation where one is a guest of a member and the round has already been arranged by said member.  In that situation, why notify the pro?  How would we be ambushing him?

TH

[John_Cullum]

Tom,

I am not suggesting you or any raters are ambushing any course or club.  I was thinking of when a local director of a golf club near where I live once mentioned to me that some raters showed up unannounced and he would have appreciated a little advance notice.  I suppose any pro or GM would like to make sure everything is tip top when their facilities are being inspected. 

Mark

Butthat doesn't apply when you are a guest. Guests don't have to be announced. And giving the club a chance to spruce up for the raters visit defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it. In this case, they never had to know they had been rated

[Joel_Stewart]

I would send them a thank you note and rise above them.

If this was a top 100 course or potential I think you did the right thing.  Its the right thing to do ti identify yourself.  If you didn't they complain they never see raters.

If this course has no chance of making the top 100, I can see his point. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Joel:

Ok now I am very confused.

I played Olympic Lake recently as part of the NCGA course rating process.  Should I have gone and sought out the pro and announced my presence as a Golf Digest rating panelist?  What possible difference could this make to them?

Same goes for other clubs at which I am fortunate to be a guest of a member from time to time... several around here already are Top 100, as you know... each time am I expected to announce my presence as a rating panelist?

I am rather with John Cullum on this; I think it hurts more than helps.  Beyond that it connotes an air of self-importance with which I am far from comfortable.

But hey, you guys do these magazine rating things way more than I do... educate me.  I do want to learn.

TH

[Joe Hancock]

Why not identify yourself as a rater after you've played, via a hand written thank you note sent in the mail?

"Dear (Pro's name) and Staff,

Thank you for a wonderful experience at your golf course. The people were gracious and I consider a joy to have been there.

Regards,

(Your Name)
(Your affiliation with said publication)


Joe

[Mark Pritchett]

Who wouldn't appreciate a heads up if they were going to be rated, that's human nature.  I was referring more to any pro at any course even public and not the specific situation of the original post.  I am not saying a rater should have to give advance notice or id themselves in any way.  That is their choice. 

I believe that raters, if possible, should remain as a "secret shopper" and pay to play, unless a member picks up the tab.

I think raters accepting freebies defeats the purpose of rating, as it has to skew the process to some degree with some raters.

[Tom Huckaby]

Why not identify yourself as a rater after you've played, via a hand written thank you note sent in the mail?

Joe

That is standard operating procedure for Golf Digest panel.

I assume it must be for the others too, as it is just common courtesy.

But that doesn't answer my other questions!
 


Mark - your takes are common in here and have been batted around countless times.  Yes in a perfect world, no comps are offered and none are taken.  The golf world however is not perfect.

Take my real life example posted earlier in this thread:  my two courses near Tahoe I am doing soon - each private clubs - there's no way I can access either without asking permission.  Also neither will accept any form of payment.  I have to do each as I am assigned to do so, and in fact one of them does not yet have the requisite number of visits required to qualify for consideration as Best New.

So what am I to do in this circumstance?

This illustrates how this is an imperfect system, and how analogies to secret shoppers or restaurant reviewers just won't fly.

Still, it is best to try at most times to treat it as you say.

Just do understand also that we TRY not to let a comp or lack thereof effect our evaluations.  Most succeed, I do believe.

TH

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

Sounds like you have to whore  solicit it up a bit.......

Entirely in jest!!!!!

Joe

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Sounds like you have to whore  solicit it up a bit.......

Entirely in jest!!!!!

Joe

Joe - heck your first word was more correct!  Those with any sense of humor realize this.  And I believe I qualify.

 

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