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Tommy_Naccarato

Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf Cours
« on: March 30, 2002, 11:05:36 PM »
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Good greens.

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Love the view.

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Great food!

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Ocean Trails is one of the worst routings I have ever been on in my life. In fact, this course should be the poster child of bad routings. However, I enjoyed playing out here, and it is quite obvious why. No matter how ugly of a day it was. After what this course has gone throug--the 18th falling into the ocean; The bank foreclosing on the Brothers Zuckerman, all sorts of nightmares. I give them a rousing applause for een being able to hold it together for as long as they have.

The staff and clubhouse is immpeccable as well as their attitudes. It really doesn't matter how good or bad the course actually is. (Very little architecture to speak of) The only thing that matters is the fact that your out playing golf on a beautiful site and I could think of a lot worse things I could  be doing.

Call it Old Head-West. (Just not nearly as dramatic)


David Kelly striking the ball


One of the most akward holes I have ever been on in my life. A cart path actually bisects the bunkers on the right.


More Pine Valley of the Pacific


This one is for Tom Paul. It is the closest thing you can find to Gulph Mills, west of the Mississippi. Unfortunately shots to the green come from the left side of the picture.


The 10th, Ocean Trails monument hole (aka Signature Hole as according to the starter.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Mike O'Neill

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2002, 04:57:24 AM »
Tommy,

How was the "forced carry" on 18? Or have they gotten the landslide repaired? Any photo of that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2002, 08:16:55 AM »
Tommy
Is there any fear that the entire course may fall into the ocean?

Mike
I'm surprised you haven't brought out your new term 'Fazioesque'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2002, 09:07:21 AM »
That is some kind of trick photography, right?  :-/

The third picture saying 'Pine Valley of the Pacific' can't be for real...

They took a perfectly good site to have a public park with nature trails and allow the public to enjoy the ocean views, and made it into a pathetic enclave for showy rich people that offers a ball and stick game played in little motor carts through bolder strewn loose rubble and scrub land with isolated patches of turf.  I know... you shouldn't get all wound up over pictures, but really... ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael_Burrows

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2002, 09:21:57 AM »
I have to agree with Tom the whole course needs to fall into the ocean. I'm sure there is a few good holes on the course ..??? As the tenth being the signature hole it looks like architect had no idea what he was doing. The bunkers just look like they were drop form the sky . They have no shape and really do not come into play at all.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SGD

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2002, 10:06:52 AM »
I hope I'm wrong, and I'll withhold judgement until I actually play the course next week, but from the photos it looks like Pete might have mailed this one in...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2002, 07:35:03 PM »
SGD,
This is about as much of a Pete Dye course as I am Abraham Lincoln.......

In a sort of post round verse, my opinion of the course remains pretty much the same. It's a beautiful place that was never really meant to be a golf course. Hardly any architecture worthy of note. I was corrected this morning about the routing. There really wasn't a lot one could do with it, but I think the course ultimately misses on memorability and variety. Like most courses done under the Dye signatue and not even really seen by Pete himself, the holes seem to be less then impressionable. Very few of them seem to have their own individual character.

Something that David Kelly brought up while out there, and  it was a good observation was that it was like the holes near the clubhouse (10 & 11) are done by a completely different architect.

Another thing, on most of the holes, there was very little to look at from most of the tees. Not so much blind, but more indescript.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2002, 12:09:35 AM »
This is not a good golf course - at all. But with this site I don't know how anyone could have done much more with it so I guess it is about as good as could have been expected.  Actually I think Tommy and I both expected much worse.

There is simply not enough room here for 18 holes and I say that after only playing 15 of them. The 18th hole no longer exists and 9 and 12 are being used as a staging area to reconstruct #18.  In fact, in the top left of the first picture is the mountain of dirt and fill that will be used to rebuild #18. And from the looks of it no matter what they say the 18th won't be ready in 2002.

The course reminds me of those terraced farms that you see in Italy. Starting with the second hole you are at the top of the property and you gradually play your way down until you reach the cliffs. Every hole is basically dead straight and each one (with the exception of #1 which was my favorite) is parallel to the shoreline. You have about 15 feet on either side of the fairway before you are in the off limits environmental area.  In addition to the mounding there are numerous bunkers running parallel to the fairway and behind the greens which also act as containment.  

The highlights would be the greens which were well contoured and had some subtle breaks but they were generally hampered by strange and often awful bunkering. However the conditions were pretty firm and fast and most of the greens could be approached on the ground. Also I thought the par 3s were varied in their look and length.  The lowlights were many but especially the completely unmemorable 4s and 5s which were dead straight and waaay too tight (we were lucky because the wind blew along the shoreline, when it comes straight off the ocean and blows hard the course will be unplayable), and the totally unnecessary love grass surrounding all of the fairway bunkers.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2002, 06:00:31 AM »
Tommy - what's with the new picture presentation format? I thought you abhorred "framing." The "Fazio-zation" of Tommy Naccarato continues unabated.

 ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DMoriarty

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2002, 07:22:29 AM »
I agree with David Kelly.  This is definitely 'switchback' golf.   Much of the containment is out of necessity -- without it a ball hit from the highest point on the course might run into the ocean.

This course has Pellican Hill syndrome.  A high profile course shoe-horned into an ocean view sight, in order to justify $200+ green fees.  

One positive, it made me appreciate courses on difficult sites that were well routed, like Kapalua.

Tommy, one question about the pictures.  Where is the photographer standing for the picture of the 10th?  I recall the tenth starting near the edge of the ocean (well to the left of the point of view of the photo) so that the bunkers were much more in play off the tee.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2002, 10:50:12 AM »
What can you tell from a picture? Well, I can't tell that this is a bad site for a golf course, but the photos certainly leave some impressions.

Picture 1: Not a bad-looking hole, actually, except for the abrupt transition from golf course to hillside on the right (no doubt exacerbated by the cart path) -- but at least it looks as though it would be fun to play.

Picture 2: I can sense the awkwardness from the photo. An uninviting, probably deceptive hole.

Picture 3: A routine, plunked-down-from-outer-space par 3; seems to me the hardest holes to make either exceptional or abominable are the one-shotters.

Picture 4: I really like the way the fairway flows into the green here; it would seem to invite the kind of run-up shot we don't see enough of on modern courses. But from Tommy's comment, it appears that shot isn't available unless you've misplayed the hole.

Picture 5: This hole is one of the most incoherent pieces of architecture I've ever seen. Half the bunkers ought to go, if not more. But at least it appears the tee and green are in the right place.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2002, 02:20:49 PM »
Tommy & David,
      Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me, but is that a cart path encircling the front left edge of the green in picture no.3? As for the rest of the pics, there's not a whole lot to say, just a plain old manufactured golf course that does no justice to the beautiful site it is situated upon. Maybe it should have been a park? Or maybe a great 9-hole track?, but I guess those don't fly now a days!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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redanman

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2002, 02:58:20 PM »
8)

This is phenomenal stuff.  I have the same question, That's not a cart path on # 3 picture is it?

What's the fare for paying stiffs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DMoriarty

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2002, 03:29:30 PM »
An island green surrounded by cart path?  Hmmm, great idea --  if you hit any part of the green, you are rewarded by not having to walk too far to your ball.  Isn't that what risk-reward is all about?  Seriously, if I recall correctly, there is a bunker surrounding the front and left side of the green.

As for as price, the partial course (15 holes) is now playing for an all day rate of $99, weekends.  Before 18th hole fell into the ocean, i think the cost was going to be in the mid $200 dollar range.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2002, 03:30:53 PM »
That is NOT a cart path on the 3rd.  It is a bunker that encricles most of the green. The hole is a par 3 that is 167 yds from the back tees.

I think it is $75 during the week and $99 on weekends and the twilight rate is less than half of that.

With the three holes out of commisson you start on #2 and play holes 2-8, 13-17, 10-11, 1-4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mike O'Neill

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2002, 04:47:20 PM »
David or Tommy,

What is the par for pictures 2 and 5?

Thanks,
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2002, 08:23:51 PM »


The par for pictures 2 (#14) & 5 (#10--Which is taken from the parking lot) is 5 & 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert

Re: GolfCalifornia.com's Story, Ocean Trails
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2002, 04:53:56 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2002, 05:04:36 PM »
Tommy:

Do the Zucherman's have any more money they want to throw away because there's some great land down in Virginia where we could probably both buy the land and build a dozen to fifteen really great courses for what they spent on that course.

We could buy the land and build two or three really great courses for what #18 is costing the Zuckermans! Are those guys using US dollars or some kind of SoCal currency?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ocean Trails-The World's Most Expensive Golf C
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2002, 05:08:38 PM »
The golfcalifornia.com article gives Ocean Trails' layout an A!? It also gets an A for value!  Ha! These reviewers are like Will Rogers, they've never seen a course they didn't like.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.
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