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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« on: May 07, 2002, 11:57:05 AM »
At Rustic Canyon, Hanse & Crew are careful not to steer the golfer in any one direction by overloading the holes with features that blare out how the holes should be played; thus, the golfer is left with lots of options (and of course, ultimately indecision seems to creep in).

Which features at RC help pose such vexing problems?

1) the slight bump to left of the 1st green. I missed my three wood long in the morning round and doubt I could get the ball up and down more than 3 out of 10 times to that back left hole location. So, in the afternoon round, I shrewdly dumped my 3 iron into wash  :(  as I knew I didn't want to be long left.

2) the 9th green.  I'm not sure if I've ever seen a bunkerless green whose contours make you want to come in dead straight with a low runner when the hole is up front in the bowl and yet, when the hole is on the back left shelf, you want to come in with a high pitch from 75 yards further to the right. Amazing stuff!

3) the slope of the 14th fairway. The more you bail long and right over the wash, the more the ball is above your feet, and the more that you will hook your approach, which is unfortunate as the green slopes right to left and much evil lurks to the left of that green.

What are some other specific design features that impress you at Rustic Canyon?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2002, 12:56:03 PM »
I loved the routing.  Playing the front nine, I've never felt more like I was playing somewhere like North Berwick this side of the Atlantic. Simple, out and back, with small little changes in direction. The back side probably has the superior holes but not as great of a routing.

Early on the back nine you could see the high point of the course, and I got a bit worry that the pleasant walk would be interrupted by a steep climb. But you end up at the high point on 16th tee without even realizing you made the climb. And the view from 16th tee, with the whole back nine out there to see was way cool.  That reminded me of the 7th tee at Gullane#1.

We need to find Hanse, Shackelord  and Wagner a piece of propoerty in Northen California. I've never been jeolous of SoCallers before in my life.

More later, hopefully I'll get my scanner re-installed later today so I can scan in the routing map.
Quote
"You will soon notice a few things about the design and maintenance of Rustic Canyon that may initially strike you as atypical. These same elements will hopefully make Rustic Canyon unique."
 --Gil Hanse & Geoff Shackelford
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2002, 02:01:37 PM »
What I would like to know is how you all felt about holes #12 and #13?

Those were the two I know best when in the dirt. The idea particularly on the tee shot of #12 was supposed to be a big open fairway, no strategic shot dictation and no apparent strategic implications, basically a huge sense of security--on the drive that is. All the strategic meaning was suppose to appear to the golfer at and on the green end and basically show him, with experience, that a sense of security anywhere on that fairway might be a false sense of security as the particular pin could hold some real meaning as to where you needed to be on that big open fairway.

Did it work? Did any of you see that or feel that (strategic) meaning was there, or there enough? I wanted to see that green have real meaning in where you needed be on the tee shot--real meaning! I was hoping a hole like that could really  prompt golfers out of their cacoon of single shot only thought and show them that real strategy was to look ahead at the whole hole and find the meaning out ahead of your current shot in subsequent shots! I thought the concept was great--I love that concept! Hope it's working!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2002, 02:42:18 PM »
A few random favorite features (I have many more):

1. The steep, mowed bank at the left front of the fifth green, which forces the play right and back, toward the hidden pot bunker and sliced bunker.

2. The ridge through the middle of the green on 11, which drastically changes the ideal angle and approach shot, depending on the pin placement.

3. The slope of the 14th fairway toward the green (right-to-left off the tee) which allows the golfer who can correctly move the ball to get some run toward the green, thus shortening the hole without cutting off too much of the cape. (This slope also allows the same golfer to minimize the awkward lie mentioned by Ran.)  Ask Dave Kelly, who hit a big (left-handed) slice, which left him with about 120 out, and a relatively level lie.  Dave was significantly closer than San Diego Sam, who blasted a huge, straight drive over the tree, and onto a sidehill lie on the right side of the fairway.

4.  The left-to-right slope on the left side of the landing area on 16.  From the tee it looks like a right-to-left ball is the ideal tee shot on the downhill 450+ yard hole, but I have seen quite a few right-to-left balls hit into this slope and stop, leaving a longer second. (You can play it right-to-left and get it to run, but to do so you need to start it way right or carry it a very long way.) A riskier left-to-right ball will run down the fairway quite a long way.

5. The slight downhill slope of the 18th fairway and green, which causes the unaware golfer to end up long (and dead) but can also cause the careful golfer to take too little club, only to end up short, and begging the ball to run.

6  The 10th green, which is one of the most visually deceptive greens I have ever seen.  From every angle, it looks different.  And from the "safe" side of the fairway, all that is visible is the flag, with trouble behind.

(Edited to change incorrect hole number (15 to 16).  I never could count much above 5.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2002, 03:10:00 PM »
Tom,

The 13th is a home run - more than one person considered it  their favorite hole on the course - you did good!

As for the 12th, the green is wonderful (no doubt about it) - did anyone get a ball within 10 feet of the top hole location all day?  Perhaps not. Plus the lower hole location seems to be a real teaser too. I'm still wondering if some more 10 at Riviera-isque fairway bunkering would help or hurt.

Guys,

Another hole that couldn't have turned out any better seems to me to have been the 2nd hole - GREAT cascading green angled toward the O.B. The short line off the tee is directly at the flag but conversely, if you're willing to hit the tee ball further left and toward the O.B, the resulting approach shot funnels toward the hole. How far left were people trying to drive on #2? Were you glad you did or does a club or two less in make up for having a semi-blind approach from the right?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

JohnV

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2002, 03:49:13 PM »
Ran, I did the exact opposite of you on #1.  In the morning I hit a 5 wood into the wash short and right of the green.  Tough long bunker-like shot and two putts for par.  In the afternoon, I hit a 3-wood long and left.  My runner with a 7-iron lipped out for eagle.  I think I was so long (almost in the rought) I was past the bump.

I loved #3, although after watching Don Mahaffey drive it long and right of the green and seeing the carry over the bunkers wasn't too long I decided to try to drive the green which I did.  Nothing less satisfying that a 3-putt par on a par 4. :(

I'm still undecided on how to play #7.  In the morning I hit 5-iron, 9-iron and easily was on the green, even though the second shot was semi-blind, I wasn't too intimidated by it.  In the afternoon, I hit driver right at the fairway bunkers.  Had a 75 yard pitch and run up the green which I hit 35 feet past the hole.  It seemed easier in the morning, although if the hole was back left, I think driving over the hazard would make sense.

Tom, 12 and 13 both work great.  Twelve might end up being one of the most frustating holes in golf as people look at it as an easy birdie and end up with a hard 4 or 5.  13 is really fun as are all the par 5s out there, which is really saying something.

I think my favorite par 3 was 6, par 4 16 and par 5 13.  16 is a great driving hole where you can shape the shot either way and take advantage of a slope and then the second is a great challange.  No idea how to get a ball to stay on that green yet.

I took the back roads home yesterday and saw a very similar site just north of Lompoc.  It wasn't for sale, but who knows, at least it would knock almost 90 minutes off the drive for us Northerners. ;)

Great job Gil and Geoff.  Also a great job to all involved in making it a fun outing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2002, 04:39:05 PM »
Tom:

The tee shot on 12 is a nice change of pace after three long holes up the canyon. Short, downhill, down the canyon, right-to-left wind that helps move the ball toward the green, inviting.  My only issue with the tee shot (and it is a minor one) is that it feels alot like an easier version of the tee shot to the right fairway on hole 3.

With regard to the approach, it will definitely take experience to understand how to best attack the various pin placements on that green.  

Hole 13 is alot of fun. Probably the most visually appealing on the course. It is amazing how uphill the approach plays.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2002, 05:33:56 PM »
Decisions, decisions, decisions. From the second shot of the round (right or left of the wash?) all the way through to the end Rustic Canyon makes you think.

I was one who got it close on 12. I drove straight through the fairway and was pin high for my second shot and then ran a sand wedge up from the left that curled around the pin to about a foot.  But with the pin being on the back shelf it is hard to get it close and I couldn't duplicate the shot in my afternoon round.

To me the 7th hole plays short enough so that I think that I will almost always play an iron off the tee to the left side. The second shot does play blind from there but it is only a wedge or nine iron.  I disagree with JohnV about the back left pin position. For me it should definitely be played from the left fairway if the pin is back there because you do not have to go over the bank to reach the landing area.  If any pin position dictates an approach from the right fairway it was the one we played on Sunday. But that is the beauty of the hole - two people played the same hole and pin position twice each and came away with opposite opinons.

Does anyone else think that the Par 3s were by far the most difficult set of holes on the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2002, 07:02:11 PM »
David,

Thinking about it, we had the Sunday hole location IN PARTICULAR on each of the five one shotters and thus, I can see your point. However, with more moderate - and normal  ;) -  hole locations, I doubt the one shotters would stand out as much difficulty-wise, especially as length is only  a factor on the 6th.

I actually commented to Gil that the five three shotters add a lot to the challenge, as none are exactly a gimme birdie hole, which will a) frustrate the heck out of the stronger golfers and b) lure them back for years to come.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2002, 07:09:18 PM »
Ran:

Don't give me any credit for #13 or #12. All I did is stand out there with Geoff one day and Geoff and Jim Wagner the next day and talk over various ideas of how to get the concept on one and the green-end the way they wanted on #13.

It was an interesting time actually, particularly for GeoffShac I'm sure since he had spent so much time on site and the day I got there a tractor was mowing the hole corridors for the first time ever so I could tell that the golf course was coming alive for him for the first time--but of course that was before construction began.

D. Moriarty:

I always felt like #3 was a lot like #12 too but that was kinda neat as both played to greens up against the road or boundary but the greens would be very different--different problems from each other.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

DMoriarty

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2002, 07:33:23 PM »
Ran and David

I think Ran is correct regarding the par 3 pin placements being in the most difficult positions.  This is particularly true on Hole 8 where just about any other pin position is in the bowled area, with a backstop on two sides directing the ball to the bottom.  Absent a strong wind, 8 with any other pin position might be one of the best chances for birdie for any golfer who can hit the ball in the air.

David, I disagree regarding the back pin on seven. The bank across the front of the green may be out of play, but there is a small bank/ridge that runs along the left side of the green, and is directly in line with the left-back pin area.  I played the course with the back pin and saw some good looking approaches kick off the bank/ridge to the left (off the green) right (on the green but well away from the pin) and long (off the green.)  That being said, at my level, I am not sure the right fairway is ever a good play, even if it means no change to get close to the back pin.  

Tom, don't get me wrong, I like both 3 and 12, and the greens definitely have different requirements.  The similar feeling of the tee shots on 3 and 12 stands out because there were so few shots that did not feel totally unique.  In fact, I can't think of any other shots which had a similar feel, with the possible exception of the tee shots on 9 and 10.  It is pretty incredible that Gil et al got so much variety out of such a subtle piece of property.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2002, 08:05:23 PM »
D. Moriarty:

I always felt #3 & #12 had a very similar feel in a routing sense and with a tee shot to the right of the greens and then both greens against the road. Variety is great but I liked that idea of being presented with a hole in about the same place on the next nine that might have a similar feeling tee shot but a different problem for there on. Do you agree with that at all--that that might be sort of interesting that way?

Actually this is an idea that I found Geo. Crump had at Pine Valley. He wanted #11 to be somewhat like #2 in concept with a very high raised green only #11 was supposed to be longer and harder than #2--but the same basic idea in the same place on the next nine! I sort of like that idea.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2002, 08:56:55 PM »
Quote
Variety is great but I liked that idea of being presented with a hole in about the same place on the next nine that might have a similar feeling tee shot but a different problem for there on.

I had not focused on the fact that 3 and 12 come at the same point on their respective nines. That is definitely an interesting parallel. Were Gil et al thinking about this when they built this hole, or did it just fit that way?  

I thought the greens on 9 and 18 were also an interesting pair.  While they play differently (9 up the canyon with a deceptive bank in front of the green, and 18 down the canyon with the front of the green perfectly level with the approach) both have somewhat of a swale running up the middle (more pronounced on 9).  Given that the holes play toward one another, I was left with the impression that both greens might be utilizing the same natural feature.  I am not sure whether this is actually the case, but even if it is not, it creates an impression which emphasizes the naturalness of the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

JohnV

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2002, 09:20:36 PM »
Actually, I think that #3 is much easier than #12.  Mainly because I drove the green the second time around. ;)  Hitting the green on #12 is harder because of the tree that requires a draw which will frequently run over the green and leave a difficult pitch.

I think we had the Sunday hole locations on every green, but we can't complain since it was Sunday.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2002, 09:26:06 PM »
How do you spell fun golf? Rustic Canyon!!, what was the low round shot?? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2002, 10:14:16 PM »
To all, It was so great getting together with all of you, and some of you again. Just a great weekend.

Tom Paul, you were with us in spirit and even in credit to what can best be described as the opening of the best closing six holes in publCalifornia public golf. To let you know, I was short on 13, about the front of the bunker on the right side and after a "challenge" by Farouk, I sunk a long breaking putt off of the bent approach. I got news for you guys who ever want to take me on match play at Rustic Canyon. The greens fit me to a tee:)

My favorite feature at Rustic Canyon is the natural Biarrtiz-type swell at the 6th. I walked out there long ago with Geoff when he was scouting the hole, and I was so amazed by how unbelievable it really was. I was literally screaming "Biarritz!" But luckly Gil and Geoff both saw that it wouldn't totally work because of the severe slope. It works so much better as an approach.

However, that is just one of many favorites.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2002, 01:38:17 PM »
Mucho Thanks to Gil, Geoff and Tommy for a great day.

The comments about Rustic Canyon have been very interesting.  It is a unique and wonderful golf course.  Rather than building 100 "Top 20" courses at $30,000,000 or more per effort as another architect wants to do, I think we should build 500 more Rustic Canyons around the coutry/world.  I think we would see more happy golfers that stay with the game for life if more Rustic Canyons were built and furthermore the golfers would begin to "get it".  Maybe Mark Fine's 99% would be pared down to 75%.

Favorite Features.

The use of the wash segmenting the fairway along a diagonal on the first hole.  You knew right there that you were in for a treat.

I enjoyed the 3rd hole very much and more thaan #12.  On #3 there is a dual fairway.  In the AM I went to the wide right side and pitched on over the bunker with a sand wedge.  In the PM I took a driver to the narrow left side that left a very short pitch up the length of the green.  I chose to run it up the slope to the back with an 8 iron that trickled a bit too far over the green.  Geoff S from a very similar position but slightly different angle had a ball between him and the hole and he choose to lob it up which he did very well and it stayed close to the hole (I called him an American after that shot  ;) .  Options, options , options.

The biarritz swale on #6 is really cool and totally natural but it can't be seen from the tee.  Local knowledge on how to use the swale will help all the repeat customers that have already booked the tee times solid.

I REALLY liked #11 greensite.  Someone mentioned the green bisected into two halves with a hump that actually extends into the green approach.  It looks like a very inviting and large target from the fairway but miss on the wrong side and you have double breaking chips, pitches and putts where speed and line is critical.  The right side has a bailout area but left pins will be very difficult because that side of the green abuts some nasty stuff. If you bailout right on left hand pins it will be very difficult to get up and down.

#13 has been mentioned but it personifies Rustic Canyon.  It looks so inviting but you can so easily walk away with bogey by being in the wrong position.  I think golfers will learn a lot playing the course and they will also have fun and lose few balls.

#14 might be the only intimidating tee shot of the round (other then going for the right fairway on #7) requiring a choice of how much of the canyon to cut off.

I can't say enough about the joy of playing at Rustic Canyon.  At a place like PGA West Stadium you are faced with heroic decisions on every shot so much so that I felt like I was going to get a case of nervous twitches. At Rustic, at least after making a bogey I played the same golf ball on the next hole. (By the way- I liked PGA West but for far different reasons).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2002, 02:11:01 PM »
D. Moriarty:

As far as #3 and #12 being somewhat the same presentation off the tee and different problems from there on and also in the same postions in the nines and did Geoff or Gil mean it to be that way? I really don't know. I think once I might have mentioned to Goeff that the two holes might have some similarities but if they meant to match #3 with #12 as Crump intended to do on PVGC's #2 & #11, I can't say.

It might have been something that just evolved out of the routing. As I think I mentioned when I was last there (March 2001) the holes were not built just routed and the concepts and designs had been almost totally developed.

I should mention that it was my understanding that to go over either green from particular angles or places from the fairway was dangerous and that the greens were sort of abutting that danger (from various directions). I hope that was the case since on short par 4s, like those two that alone is a wonderful feature, I think. It adds a good element of intensity to a short hole and a short approach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2002, 03:20:43 PM »
I should probably wait another day to get over the jet lag before posting about Rustic, but I have a few minutes and thought I would post some initial impressions.

First of all, the course is the most low-profile one I've seen yet in the states, with something like only 17,000 cubic feet moved.  It is also perhaps the most playable modern course I've seen, with humungously wide fairways, only a handful of forced carries, no water hazards, and ample greensites.  

The layout is beguiling, inviting, confusing, scintillating, anachronistic, FUN, innovative, deceptive, tempting, soothing, and subtly challenging.  I took a roll of pictures, but will be surprised if any of them do justice to the course, because it is NOT a "oh wow" type of visual extravaganza so common in modern design.

Interestingly, the course I would compare it to might sound ridiculous on the face of it, but to me it's not a stretch at all to see remarkable similarities to The Old Course, sans most of the blindness found there.  But, just like TOC, the greens and holes locations are paramount and largely determine strategy.  The width of the fairways accommodate what is needed to approach the greens in all of their potential variations, as well as to handle the not inconsiderable winds that often zip through the canyon.  Just as importantly, the hazards look and play as exactly that.  You simply don't want to be in some of the hazards or their rough surrounds.  

We were fortunate to play 36 holes, because it gave us the opportunity to attempt some different strategical tactics the second time around, and in some cases it turned out that the proper solutions were the most non-obvious ones.

In the interest of time, I'd just like to mention the two holes that were mentioned earlier, 12 and 13, because they are pretty indicative of the type of variation and contrast found at Rustic.  

From the back tees, 12 plays 330 yards downwind, down-canyon yards with not much elevation change from tee to green.  It is a dogleg left, not turning much until the last 50 yards.  The green is set at an angle maybe 75 degrees turned from the tee, and there is a huge fairway out to the right, which seems the very safe play.  Conversely, a tee shot directly at the green has to deal with some rough ground and scrubland, although the green is VERY visible from the tee and almost beacons like a sentinel.  

The green itself has a steep horseshoe shaped shelf that seems almost impenetrable with an approach from any distance with the hole location atop it.  It is one hole where the player is tempted to keep aggressively driving further to the left with each playing, simply because of its benign appearance, visibility of the green, potential for birdie or eagle, and wide fairway that almost makes one feel like they are chickening out to purposefully aim to the right.  In other words, the green "pulls" the golfer, even when that is clearly a low percentage shot, especially with an OB fence paralleling the green on the left.  

To be honest, I felt the hole played best from the 305 yard tee, where more players will be tempted to give it a go downwind.  In our group, playing that tee the first go-round, two very long drivers in our group went for it, one laying parallel and the other going over.  I believe they scored 4 and 6.  

13 is more classically straightforward in appearance and challenge.  Picture 6 at Carnoustie, back uphill, into the wind, with the shorter, straight-line being between the OB fence and the right-center fairway pot bunker.  A pair of diagonal bunkers threaten the second shot, and the green is a "rolling sea", horseshoe shaped affair with the wings of the green separated by another pot dead center.  There are so many ways to play the hole, and such creative shot-making demands on the approach, that it stood out in my mind as the best hole on the course and one of the best par fives I've seen built in modern times.  

I'll try to add more to this thread in the next few days, but in the meantime, I'd like to add my sincere thanks to everyone who made the wonderful outing at Rustic Canyon possible.

 :)  
    



      

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2002, 03:59:18 PM »
How is the course being recieved in SoCal? Or is too early to say. Has it been given favorable press or any coverage?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2002, 06:55:10 PM »
TomP,
I think the bunkers left and behind the third green are a good example of the challenges you mention.  They are very intimidating with a back left pin, probably in part because the small bunker with the narrow finger is right next to the road, and one of the first things the golfer sees upon driving into the long RC driveway.  

The hole reminds me of Doak's discussion about the value of a hidden bunker behind a green. If I recall, he wrote that hidden back bunkers present more of a challenge to the good, accomplished player, who will be more aware of the them and therefore may leave the approach short, while the less accomplished player may never even notice them. (As a less accomplished player who is aware of the bunkers, I am in real trouble.)  Three at RC takes this theory one step further, tempting the accomplished player to play the riskier tee shot to the left fairway in order to avoid hitting straight at the bunkers. A challenging hole the for the better golfer, and relatively straight forward and open to the average player.  This excellent charactertistic is typical of many of the holes at RC.

Mike,
I am glad you descibed 12 as "downwind, down-canyon."  I was hesitant to do so, because I think the prevailing wind is generally up-canyon, or at least cross-canyon.  But 12 sure felt downwind to me, also. The wind does some interesting things in that canyon.

TomM,
I havent seen any press, but RC getting alot of play and the golfers I have talked to are very positive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2002, 09:26:46 PM »
Par is defended around the greens.
The fairways alre wide and allow manuever in placement of the drive and the shot to the green.
The sandy soil  gives a links golf feel to the game.
My favorite holes were 3,6,8,13,&16.
Many green complexes had elevated greens that were great fun to pitch,chip or putt for recovery shots. Frankly I used the putter more as time passed.
I found it like Scotland without the jet lag or cost.Forty dollar green fees are thrifty in this state.
WELL DONE
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2002, 10:16:49 PM »
Just a couple of late night observations and criticisms...

First of all, if you are here on GCA, you probably have a keen interest in natural architecture.

If so, let me just say this...

This IS the real deal, fellas.  EVERYTHING that is espoused and admired on here in terms of architectural philosophy about minimalism, naturalism, site-specific architecture, strategy, playability, interest, variety, and just "finding" as opposed to "manufacturing" golf holes can be found in spades at Rustic Canyon.  

From a design standpoint, I can't imagine that anyone could have created a more interesting and enjoyable course from the available land.  They not only discovered natural holes where they lay, but did it in a way that was frugal, maintainable, natural, and sensible.  

I would contend that THIS is not only where public golf should be headed, but private golf as well.  What is so horrible about most of the natural land out there that so many feel that they have to move tons of it to create fabulous golf, primarily to provide visual histrionics??

My only architectural criticisms are minor.  For instance, the 15th green was built into a steep uphill slope, and in an effort to blend it while still making it playable, it includes three "steps" that ultimately make it appear as the only humanly contrived green on the course.

Beyond that, a few trees should be cleared on the right side off the tee on 13, so that the OB fence appears more clearly into the view.  It's an old wire fence that adds and not detracts to the site, and should be in the player's head as he or she considers the drive.

The 7th hole is a mystery, largely because the shrubs and other growth in the environmental area that one must cross really impinge the view.  I'm sure after multiple playings that it wouldn't be the same consideration, but it's very difficult to figure out what to do the first couple of playings.  

The drives on the 9th and 10th par fives are too similar, and I believe both Geoff and Gil recognize this.  In both cases, it's too long on both holes before things get interesting and confounding.  This should be re-thought to some extent, because both green complexes are superb.

Finally, apart from architecture, it's a shame that the course requires cart paths, because it's a very enjoyable walk.  They do negatively affect the natural visual impact.  Ditto for the huge fence protecting the parking lot off of 18.

But, if I could change anything about Rustic Canyon, I would reconsider the grass type on the fairways.  I know not a thing about agronomy, or what grows best in that climate, but the rye grass fairways simply do not provide the type of fast running turf that would do the architectural features the best justice.  That is negated somewhat by the bent grass greens and close-cropped surrounds, but one wonders what the course could have been if some type of fescue or bent in the fairways was feasible.  Throw in the significant winds at the site, and the holes would have had a tremendous variability in playability and length.

Perhaps as the course matures, the fairways will be fast running.  Still, I don't know that rye is the right choice.

All in all, though, I am tremendously excited by what was created by Gil, Geoff, and Jim at Rustic Canyon, and LA golfers of all stripes are indeed extremely fortunate with this latest, tremendous addition to affordable, public golf.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2002, 08:38:56 AM »
WOW.  Drool.  Why is there life outside of golf?  This is a mere 300 milles from my home... Why does life not allow me to make the drive TODAY?

Oh well, thanks for all the thoughts, guys.  I'm with Dan King - this might be the first thing that ever makes me envy SoCal, when I see it.  And see it I will, in about a month.

For you SoCals - you still have to live there!   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2002, 08:51:56 AM »
I find it funny how the NorCals tease the SoCals about having to live there.  How much does it cost to join a private golf club in NorCal?  What is your cost of living up there?  How about your traffic?  And SF (the city) is too cold and windy.

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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