So a group of my friends went to Michigan to play golf...

[Carl Nichols]

So they love BCC and don't like Caves (as) much, but love Arcadia and don't like Crystal Downs (as) much?  

Are they just homers? 

[Jim Franklin]

So they love BCC and don't like Caves (as) much, but love Arcadia and don't like Crystal Downs (as) much?  

Are they just homers? 

Homers would be a good word.

To answer another question, yes, BCC is Baltimore Country Club.

One guy said he would rather pay $180 and play Arcadia 1000 times than join Crystal Downs for $180,000. I almost puked. It is sad that he afford that too.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

Now I'm really confused they didnt like a classic layout like CD but love BCC

It seems their tastes have no common reference point.

Is it simply a matter of what they see from an eyeball perspective and little else ?

Matt -

In my personal opinion, I believe there is one guy in the group they all wait to hear his opinion and then they chime in. None of them have a clue as to what they are playing. No common reference point is very accurate.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

I dunno... sounds to me like a decent group of guys, some lemmings if they all follow the one guy, but nothing crazy.  If I'm going to Sand Hills or Crystal Downs, no I don't want to go with them... but if I am going to say Half Moon Bay, I'd rather have them along than those who must appreciate brilliance in architecture to be able to smile while playing.

 

I also think that Phil Benedict nails this as to how it works in general.  That was simple and elegant and brilliant.

TH

[Jim Colton]

Did they play each course more than once?  Maybe they're hopeless, but I'm willing to bet that Arcadia is the type of course that wows you the first time but you're appreciation doesn't grow (or deteriorates) with multiple plays.  CD might be the type of course that reveals itself over time, each round bringing a greater appreciation.  

When I went to N.Michigan with the Tang Bros last fall, I didn't even bother to play Arcadia on the final day of the trip because I didn't think for $180 it was going to offer me anything that I hadn't already experienced in my first 5-6 rounds there.  You could certainly do a lot worse than 1,000 rounds at Arcadia, but the thrill of the vistas would wear off pretty quick.

 

[Craig Van Egmond]

Chuck Brown,

    The guy you are looking for as the 'co-author" of Arcadia is Warren Henderson.

[JC Jones]

Is Crystal Downs really $180,000 to join?

If that is the case, that is sad.  One of the things I admire(d) most about the place is how it didn't seem to be inhabited by the uber-rich.  Most folks from Grand Rapids 90 years ago had money, but not that kind of money.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I absolutely agree with you that most of the general public doesn't like the courses that those into GCA do, and my experience has been that most low handicap golfers care more about maintenance practices and their scores than the quality of the architecture.  One thing I would be curious about is if they played the courses with a caddie - very often understanding how to play a hole is very important in enjoyment of the hole.

[George Freeman]

It would be interesting to see the scores of the "alpha male" for the different courses; I'm assuming we would see a certain pattern.  I would bet that score had a BIG influence on what he (and therefore they) liked...

[JC Jones]

It would be interesting to see the scores of the "alpha male" for the different courses; I'm assuming we would see a certain pattern.  I would bet that score had a BIG influence on what he (and therefore they) liked...

Does an alpha-male play a butter-cut?

[George Freeman]

It would be interesting to see the scores of the "alpha male" for the different courses; I'm assuming we would see a certain pattern.  I would bet that score had a BIG influence on what he (and therefore they) liked...

Does an alpha-male play a butter-cut?

You know it

[Jim Franklin]

It would be interesting to see the scores of the "alpha male" for the different courses; I'm assuming we would see a certain pattern.  I would bet that score had a BIG influence on what he (and therefore they) liked...

Does an alpha-male play a butter-cut?

You know it

Actually, their alpha male plays a snap hook.

[JC Jones]

It would be interesting to see the scores of the "alpha male" for the different courses; I'm assuming we would see a certain pattern.  I would bet that score had a BIG influence on what he (and therefore they) liked...

Does an alpha-male play a butter-cut?

You know it

Actually, their alpha male plays a snap hook.

Well then, he and I would get along

[David Neveux]

This doesn't surprise me in the least bit. 

Arcadia -- Has a TON of WOW factor, especially during you're first visit.  Count me as a fan of this "TRACK" , as everyone knows the views are incredible.  I think theres a lot of good to great golf holes as well, but thats me.  It definitely doesn't have the same Oh My God feeling as it did on my first visit.  $180 is way too much, but there are some deals to be had.  Sure it's long from the back tees, but there are several holes where you can make some good scores.  At least three Par 5's anyone with length and the right wind can get to, I'm thinking about 1, 3, 15.  I mean Cenci just played here and told me he shot 35 on the back, so obviously anyone can post a good round here

Oakland Hills -- A wonderful course with a lot of HISTORY.  Kind of like Inverness, it's cool to play the same holes as the guys do in the Majors, at least for me.  From the back tee's it is LONG and the greens / green complexes are very very interesting and challenging.  If you're not hitting it solid off the back markers, you're absolute toast.  Also, local knowledge on and around these greens / approaches etc. is an absolute necessity if you expect to make a good score.

Crystal Downs -- Easily my favorite of the bunch, but I can remember thinking back to my first round, or first rounds of friends who know nothing about the course and it's nearly impossible to come away with a score that would make you feel like you've earned a beer.  That being said, after my first go, all I wanted to do was get back out there.  Never judge a course by it's total yardage, add a little wind  and 6500 feels like 7200.  For those judging a course based on personal score, I doubt anyone would like CD after  one or even two plays.  You need to see, play, feel this course over the course of at least 5-10 rounds before you can come up with a game plan of how to not only attack, but how to play double bogey prevent defense.  Most golfer, and most low markers do not like to be F***** after two nice shots, a G.I.R and a subsequent X for being on the wrong side or spot on the green; See #10. 

Whats sad is not that they prefer Arcadia to the other two.  That is a matter of opinion, and I'm not going to debate someone elses preferences.  Whats is sad are statements like "they hated Kingsley" or thought that "Crystal Downs was tricked up."  They don't have enough experience on these courses to quantify those statements and therefore they come off like ignorant jackasses.  They have the wrong attitude, and thats too bad.  Thats why Arcadia is a success using the "resort" model and Crystal Downs and Kingsley are the ultimate "member" courses.  Whats equally as sad is that it would seem these guys have no idea how lucky they are to be granted access to these great private courses, only to turn around to there buddies back at BCC and say, "oh yeah I played Crystal, didn't really like it."  "How Come, what did you shoot?"  "Well I had a 86 with 3 X's and just felt like it was tricked up."  "Hmmm, yeah I hate courses like that!!"  If they want to see a "tricked up" course I suggest they visit "The Chief" next time they're in Northern Michigan. 

In the words of Frank Ricard (Will Ferrel as Frank the Tank in Old School) "GOOD, GOOD!  MORE FOR ME AND YOU"

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Just a quick question on the group that went to Arcadia -- do the better players work the ball fairly well when needed. Generally, when you get power players they like courses that are fairly straightforward (although beautiful) like Arcadia because like a fastball pitcher they know what's expected and can simply swing as needed. When playing places like CD -- or others of this type -- you need to change gears with clubs off tees and often times work the ball as needed to different landing areas and green positions.

Your thoughts ?

[JC Jones]

Well put Nev.

W/ respect to Arcadia though, only you can call a 600+ par 5, reachable!

[Adam Clayman]

Just to be contrarian aren't the views a part of the experience? What's better, a nice house on the shore or in the mountains or the same calibre house in a suburban sub-division?  I know this is an eternal GCA debate but at the end of the day most people will judge a course on the totality of the experience, and views are a big part of the experience for most people.

Phil, I have not read the responses past yours on this thread, so I don't know what tack it's taken, but, my first impression is that Jim's buds are just golfer's who probably have never given much thought, or made much study, of GCA. Experiences are great for the one time play, but, I think the more sophisticated gca enthusiast should be looking for courses that have infinite elasticity causing inspiring compelling designs, under every condition, and, for every round.

I suspect most of us, before we delved deeper, would've reacted the exact same way as these guys.

Et al,  being a member of some great place does not mean they joined for the reasons any of us would, now. Which implies a GCA acumen is something learned not inherited.

These guys sound like they be the types to join their clubs greens committee and screw things up for decades to come. A lowest common denominator indeed.

[Adam Clayman]

Crystal Downs --  I doubt anyone would like CD after  one or even two plays.  You need to see, play, feel this course over the course of at least 5-10 rounds before you can come up with a game plan of how to not only attack, but how to play double bogey prevent defense.  Most golfer, and most low markers do not like to be F***** after two nice shots, a G.I.R and a subsequent X for being on the wrong side or spot on the green; See #10. 

As a theory, you can scrape this one. I have witnesses.

Glad I can be exceptional, no matter how infrequent.

JC Jones, judging the members because their memberships are priced high is plain wrong.  CD memberships are virtually priceless, since joining is nearly impossible.

[JC Jones]

Im not judging the members Adam.  In fact, that was my point.  My experience there with the member I played with and with the handful of members I talked to (some of them very old and some of them teachers who could never afford that fee) was positive because it wasn't filled with the uber-rich.  You're right, the current members are not to blame because their membership is now worth $180k due to Golf publication rankings.  What is sad is that the next generation of members wont necessarily be the same type as the current and past generations because the current and past generations of members (most of them) could never afford $180k entry fees.

This is probably my midwestern, down to earth bias but so be it.  Forgive me for wanting Michigan's greatest treasure to avoid becoming wall street's next toy.

[Steve Lang]

  When I walked all over Caves Valley back in 2002 when they had the Senior Open there (Pooley over Watson in over over overtime) I met a member.. he said initiation fee was $150,000 and one had to belong to another club as a "primary club"  also..  it was impressive, but not THAT impressive!  it had many wide and open fairways as I remember ..  How much golf can that money buy?

i suspect there's a "driver mentality at work" sign that may need to be hung out for some opinions

[Kenny Baer]

I could not imagine under any circumstance that CD is $180K to join.  It is not that kind of club; the places that try to get over 6 figure initiation fees are the new trendy clubs that are now letting people just walk up and pay the monthly dues and become a member.  Cypress Point, ANGC, CD, Merion, etc...would not have $180k initiation fees; from what I know about initiation fees which isn't much.

I would have to be shown the application with the initiation fee on it to believe that figure.

I would bet the initiation fee is around 50k. 

[Jim Franklin]

Just to be contrarian aren't the views a part of the experience? What's better, a nice house on the shore or in the mountains or the same calibre house in a suburban sub-division?  I know this is an eternal GCA debate but at the end of the day most people will judge a course on the totality of the experience, and views are a big part of the experience for most people.

Phil, I have not read the responses past yours on this thread, so I don't know what tack it's taken, but, my first impression is that Jim's buds are just golfer's who probably have never given much thought, or made much study, of GCA. Experiences are great for the one time play, but, I think the more sophisticated gca enthusiast should be looking for courses that have infinite elasticity causing inspiring compelling designs, under every condition, and, for every round.

I suspect most of us, before we delved deeper, would've reacted the exact same way as these guys.

Et al,  being a member of some great place does not mean they joined for the reasons any of us would, now. Which implies a GCA acumen is something learned not inherited.

These guys sound like they be the types to join their clubs greens committee and screw things up for decades to come. A lowest common denominator indeed.

Well said Adam.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

Just a quick question on the group that went to Arcadia -- do the better players work the ball fairly well when needed. Generally, when you get power players they like courses that are fairly straightforward (although beautiful) like Arcadia because like a fastball pitcher they know what's expected and can simply swing as needed. When playing places like CD -- or others of this type -- you need to change gears with clubs off tees and often times work the ball as needed to different landing areas and green positions.

Your thoughts ?

Only one of the players is a real power player. The others are medium length guys that have decent short games (the lowest handicaps), and the others (mid handicaps (5-8)) are just decent all around.

[JC Jones]

I could not imagine under any circumstance that CD is $180K to join.  It is not that kind of club; the places that try to get over 6 figure initiation fees are the new trendy clubs that are now letting people just walk up and pay the monthly dues and become a member.  Cypress Point, ANGC, CD, Merion, etc...would not have $180k initiation fees; from what I know about initiation fees which isn't much.

I would have to be shown the application with the initiation fee on it to believe that figure.

I would bet the initiation fee is around 50k. 

Im with you Kenny, thats why I was so shocked to hear that number.  Those old school places probably dont need that kind of capital influx and those types of initiation fees are generally for the Bayonnes and Trump Clubs of the world where its as much about the ego as it is the golf.

[Joe Hancock]

"Friends don't let friends drive to Michigan..."