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Adam Clayman

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Fighting the Land. Examples?
« on: July 12, 2009, 11:25:59 PM »
There seems to be many examples of holes that fight the land.

Chaparral Pines comes to mind as a course having more than one. In Denver, at Inverness (Preston Maxwell  ;) gets design credit) there was at least one.

Any one want to take a stab at defining the term and/or giving examples?
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Sean_A

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 04:16:15 AM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on July 12, 2009, 11:25:59 PM
There seems to be many examples of holes that fight the land.

Chaparral Pines comes to mind as a course having more than one. In Denver, at Inverness (Preston Maxwell  ;) gets design credit) there was at least one.

Any one want to take a stab at defining the term and/or giving examples?

ADam

I would think on any extreme site, the archie has to fight the land to make the golf playable.  Sometimes it can be ott and sometimes it really works.  Two great examples of courses working on extreme (not mountainous mind you, but quite hilly) are Beau Desert and Kington.  In particularly Kington because it does climb a fairly steep hill for the entire front 9 but one doesn't ever get the impression that they are on a slog.  On a lesser scale I have always thought that doglegs against the flow of the ground are fighting the land.  I like the concept, but more room for error has to be allowed for.  An example of a hole going ott is 10th at Hoylake.



Ciao
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 04:21:34 AM by Sean Arble »
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Phil McDade

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 07:45:00 AM »
Adam:

A little help -- holes that are poorly done because they fight the land, or well-done holes in spite of fighting the land? Sean's is more of the latter; I have an example of the former?

Thanks---
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 08:33:37 AM »
Phil. I made no judgement good or bad but I would think like other aspects too many holes that have to fight the land would be a poor routing. Shouldn't a course accentuate the natural site rather than fight it?
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Anthony Gray

Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 09:05:33 AM »


  Number 6 at Dornoch fights the land. Not saying that it is a bad hole only the green fits into the side of the hill. This is a logicaal place for a hole because it ties 5 and 7 together.

  Also 14 at Bandon Trails. The steep left to right movement of the topography does not alow much. Again not saying it is a bad hole it just fights the topograpghy. The secound shot from beneath the hole is best place in the bunker than over the green.

  Anthony

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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 09:22:37 AM »
I only think of a hole as "fighting the land" when it's a bad hole. If it's a good hole on difficult land I think of it as "ingenious". So to me the good holes that have been described by Sean, Anthony et al are ingenious.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »
Adam,
I'm curious which holes you were referring to at Chaparral Pines? I have a couple guesses, but I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're referring to. Perhaps the 11th, which doglegs left across a hill that goes to the right. Its fairly narrow with trees on both sides, so the tee shot has to be almost perfect. The 12th is super narrow in the landing area because of the rock area to the right of the fairway and then more trees left, but I'm not sure if that fights the land or is just too narrow.  There are quite a few other holes out there that I thought were well done, although it seemed like it could have been better had they been willing to cram a few less housing lots in and left more room for playing corridors. The homes themselves weren't really the issue.
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 10:51:23 AM »
Adam, I'd have to say that Mike DeVries had to fight the land (in a good and impressive way) to route out and construct Grey Walls on many of the holes.  They are dramatic, and some are shoehorned into areas of the grey walled cliff terrain.  Yet most of them are very impressive in the result of the struggle with the severe terrain, IMO. 

http://www.marquettegolfclub.com/course_layout_g.htm

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Scott Szabo

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 10:53:04 AM »
Adam,

Have you ever played Heritage Hills in McCook Nebraska?  I think hole #2 fits this perfectly.  It's an awful hole with a sharp dogleg to the right, playing along the edge of a hill with the fairway moving right to left.  It's almost impossible to keep a ball in play on that hole.
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Phil McDade

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 11:31:44 AM »
Adam:

Something that has long bothered me about some high-profile courses (UW-Madison's University Ridge comes immediately to mind) is that designers will often litter holes with bunkers, "natural grasses," mounds and other assorted detritus instead of letting the land dictate the hole hazards and playing corridors.

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Patrick Kiser

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 12:23:02 PM »
I can't believe Pete L, Tom H or David S haven't chimed in about The Crossings in Carlsbad, CA.  Talk about fighting the land...

And a $60MM-$70MM distaster no less.


Pete / Tom / David,

What up?  You guys asleep at the wheel or something?
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 05:06:33 PM »
Andy, It's been many years since I played CP. But as I recall, if #11 is the par 5, it did not fight the land as badly as some of the other holes on the back. If #10 is the par 5, then yes, #11 is likely one of them.

Dick, I never got the feeling Mike was fighting the land at GW. But I suppose I'm unclear  on a definition. Perhaps #16 with the cant to the left while the hole goes right? But no other hole has that aspect that I recall.

Anthony, I disagree strongly that the 14th at Bandon Trails fights the land. It's a str8 hole.

Scott, I do know the second at HH. It seems like a mild version of what I hope I'm trying to quantify.  ;D The tenth or eleventh hole there might be a better example. The one that goes around that hillock to the left.

Sean, I think you nail it too. But, I would not limit it to severe sites. Hilly, yes, severe, no.

Charlie, I believe I know what you imply, but, it seems so incongruous.


I doubt we have an adequate definition. It can't be as simple as a hole that turns right or left with the cant in the opposite direction. Or, a hole that turns one way while demanding a shot that goes the other. Why? Because after all, Lefties play the game too!  ;)



« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:09:36 PM by Adam Clayman »
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Mark_F

Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 04:29:24 AM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on July 12, 2009, 11:25:59 PM
Any one want to take a stab at defining the term and/or giving examples?

Adam,

Perhaps it is a hole where pre-conceived ideas take priority over what is naturally there?

National Moonah on the Mornington Peninsula here in Melbourne has a couple of the best examples I can think of.

The par three 8th hole is a very wide but shallow tiered green fronted by some ill-fitting bunkers.  On this occasion it's more the construction that doesn't work - nothing really looks natural.




The sixth is a medium length par four with a green horribly out of place. 



They were determined to get into the territory occupied by the very good 11th hole, and these two holes, along with the 9th, are perhaps the result.

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Mike_Clayton

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 04:38:55 AM »
One of the most famous holes in Britain comes to mind.
The par 5, 17th at Wentworth - slinging dogleg left with land sharply sloping the opposite way.
It is also one of the scary tee shots in golf with the out of bounds all the way down the left.
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Emil Weber

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Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 05:12:46 AM »
Mark F,

I think that actually looks quite good!
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Mark_F

Re: Fighting the Land. Examples?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 05:59:17 AM »
Emil,

That's due to the skill of the photographer.  In real life, they aren't so pretty.

Mike:

So is the 17th at Wentworth a good hole?  Doak gives it a bit of a pasting in The Confidential Guide, but that may be due to his discontent with Palmer.
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