[John Moore II]

I have no arguments for the math, as I suppose it could be plausible.  (Lies, damn lies, then statistics)  I'm sure the numbers can be weaseled by us or the course to fit 190K rounds.

However, no one is playing in three hours (save for maybe the first group, if it isn't a 4some) at Ala Wai.  I have not experienced it myself, but I have talked to several who have played AW.  The rounds are closer to 5h, 30m than even 4 hours.

I have hit balls there, and I had to wait 90 minutes for my "tee time," and this was at 10pm under the lights.  It is one of the busiest places I have ever been golfwise.

"3 hour rounds on a 5800 yard course are very real" does not apply here.  The place is a factory, and you better plan most of your day to play at AW.  The only way they get to 190,000 is by counting every person that pays for a hole at the shop.

So is this place fully lighted? If so, that changes the math big time. And like I said before, any group that takes 5:30 to play a 5800 yard course needs to take up bowling, thats pure pathetic, there is no reason for around at a course like that to take more than 3:15.

[Chris DeNigris]

John,

We've all played rounds in 3 and 3.5 hrs...It's perfectly doable, it's just not the norm in the US. I'd bet that the average public, weekend, 4-some round on a typical benign setup, 6000-6300 yds, is probably 4 hrs 15 minutes. Just too many slo-pokes out there and not enough aggressive marshals. On a ton of publics 5 hrs is not uncommon.

You put 400-500 average golfers on the same course on the same day, it doesn't take more than a handful of knuckleheads to back the whole place up. Creative accounting got them 190K rounds.

[John Moore II]

Well, in defense of course marshalls, there is only so much they can do. I thought a guy was literally about to take a swing at me one time because I told him to speed up. Those guys can only do so much. And too often, courses set the playing times too slow to start with. Course management somehow thinks that 4:20 or so is acceptable time these days; its not.

I get what you are saying, I've been behind the counter for a while now. Even still, there is no reason rounds shouldn't be played in well under 4 hours on a course as easy as the one in question.

[rjsimper]

Guys, I think one error in calculation is that as far as I know, Ala Wai plays SIXsomes, not fivesomes.

[John Moore II]

Guys, I think one error in calculation is that as far as I know, Ala Wai plays SIXsomes, not fivesomes.

If thats the truth, they could pump through 300,000+ people through that place in theory. And of course that will certainly do away with 3.5 hour rounds. But I guess if they are getting 164,000 golfers a year, no one must care too much. All I can say is that place must be highly profitable.

[Sam Maryland]

John,

We've all played rounds in 3 and 3.5 hrs...It's perfectly doable, it's just not the norm in the US. I'd bet that the average public, weekend, 4-some round on a typical benign setup, 6000-6300 yds, is probably 4 hrs 15 minutes. Just too many slo-pokes out there and not enough aggressive marshals. On a ton of publics 5 hrs is not uncommon.

You put 400-500 average golfers on the same course on the same day, it doesn't take more than a handful of knuckleheads to back the whole place up. Creative accounting got them 190K rounds.

Even a Healthsouth CFO wouldn't sign off on those bogus numbers!!  Just ridiculous.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know the Las Vegas Muni used to play about 120,000 rounds, which is about 325 rounds a day for 365 days, since they rarely get rain.

[Matt Day]

we've just done 174,000 rounds for 36 holes. The record was 210,000 in the late 80's and I couldnt imagine the chaos that would have been.

At ou extremely busy times we can push through 800 plus, but thats based on nearly 14 hours of sunlight

[John Moore II]

we've just done 174,000 rounds for 36 holes. The record was 210,000 in the late 80's and I couldnt imagine the chaos that would have been.

At ou extremely busy times we can push through 800 plus, but thats based on nearly 14 hours of sunlight

Matt-where do you work? Thats a lot of golfers.

[JSPayne]

Let's try a little different approach......

Forget tee times. At my course, the days we maximize play is when we do two full-field shot guns back to back. The shot-gun idea just puts aside this arguement of how much time is the right amount of time between tee times. It is logistically fair to say a course is "full" when there are 2 groups on each par 4 (tee & fairway), 1 group on each par 3 (tee), and 3 groups on each par 5 (tee, fairway & approach/green), which usually amounts to 2 groups per hole on 18 holes. As such, a speedy pace of golf is still reasonable. Any more full and people are waiting all over and the pace of play goes way down.

Here's the math, tricked up with the comments people have made:

Assume they can tee off starting at 6am, on average, year round. Assume it is a short course and they can complete an 18-hole round in 4 hours (not unreasonable for a course of 5000 some odd yards). Assume they do 3 full-course, full-field (that means 2 groups per hole) shot-guns everyday at 6am, 10am and 2pm, which means the last group would finish by 6pm, which still leaves plenty of time. Assume every group is a 5-some.

So.....1 shot gun= 18 holes x 2 groups x 5 people/group =180 rounds

3 shot guns/day = 540 rounds

364 days/year = 196,560 rounds

Still gives maintenance 12 hours to do what they need to do (obviously would need headlights on everything) and the math still leaves room for groups less than 5, some inclement weather, and/or finishing later than 6pm.

Conclusion: It's POSSIBLE......but highly, HIGHLY unlikely that any golf course could pull this off day in day out. Even the logistics of us doing 144 + 144 (two full field shotguns in the same day) is INSANE. I give them credit for pushing alot of people through, but still believe there is some padding to those numbers.

[Matt Day]

we've just done 174,000 rounds for 36 holes. The record was 210,000 in the late 80's and I couldnt imagine the chaos that would have been.

At ou extremely busy times we can push through 800 plus, but thats based on nearly 14 hours of sunlight

Matt-where do you work? Thats a lot of golfers.

John
I am at a course called Wembley in Perth, Western Australia. Golf here is affordable ($28 AUS for 18 holes weekend), the weather is pretty good and the courses are in good condition (built on sand so drain quickly). We only shut for Christmas day and in summer we have golfers going off from 5am onwards.

I struggle to see how some of those 18 hole courses are putting through 150,000 rounds, I have a competitor about 6 miles away doing around 95,000 rounds and couldnt see how they could do another 40-50,000.

[John Moore II]

we've just done 174,000 rounds for 36 holes. The record was 210,000 in the late 80's and I couldnt imagine the chaos that would have been.

At ou extremely busy times we can push through 800 plus, but thats based on nearly 14 hours of sunlight

Matt-where do you work? Thats a lot of golfers.

John
I am at a course called Wembley in Perth, Western Australia. Golf here is affordable ($28 AUS for 18 holes weekend), the weather is pretty good and the courses are in good condition (built on sand so drain quickly). We only shut for Christmas day and in summer we have golfers going off from 5am onwards.

I struggle to see how some of those 18 hole courses are putting through 150,000 rounds, I have a competitor about 6 miles away doing around 95,000 rounds and couldnt see how they could do another 40-50,000.

Well, do you have an unlimited 12 month season? Meaning are your rounds basically flat-line 12 months a year or do you tail off during the winter (i.e. now, for you) and work through far more rounds in summer? The clubs that do those huge volumes will have a 12 month season where there is basically no change in rounds played during any month. If that is the case and you can book solid for all 12 months with good weather throughout, then those huge numbers are a possibility.

[Matt Day]

we've just done 174,000 rounds for 36 holes. The record was 210,000 in the late 80's and I couldnt imagine the chaos that would have been.

At ou extremely busy times we can push through 800 plus, but thats based on nearly 14 hours of sunlight

Matt-where do you work? Thats a lot of golfers.

John
I am at a course called Wembley in Perth, Western Australia. Golf here is affordable ($28 AUS for 18 holes weekend), the weather is pretty good and the courses are in good condition (built on sand so drain quickly). We only shut for Christmas day and in summer we have golfers going off from 5am onwards.

I struggle to see how some of those 18 hole courses are putting through 150,000 rounds, I have a competitor about 6 miles away doing around 95,000 rounds and couldnt see how they could do another 40-50,000.

Well, do you have an unlimited 12 month season? Meaning are your rounds basically flat-line 12 months a year or do you tail off during the winter (i.e. now, for you) and work through far more rounds in summer? The clubs that do those huge volumes will have a 12 month season where there is basically no change in rounds played during any month. If that is the case and you can book solid for all 12 months with good weather throughout, then those huge numbers are a possibility.

John
we do have seasonal variation from lows of 11-12,000 rounds now up to 16-17,000 in summer, thats as much to do with availble sunlight as weather. Its a beautiful winter day here now and we'll do around 500 rounds for the day

[John Moore II]

Matt, I can safely say that I never had 500 golfers come through any of my golf courses on a given day. Thats a lot of golfers.

[DMoriarty]

There are around a dozen courses in Los Angeles County that do over 100,000 rounds a year, and a handful that get up close to 120,000.   Adding 80,000 on top of that seems incredible. 

[Emil Weber]

I'm with Adrian, I think it's impossible. You can't tee off at 6pm all year in Hawaii unless you want to pay the greenfee for 1 hole...

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Boys let's get a few things straight about some of the L.A. courses.

Los Verdes and La Mirada are L.A. County courses and do play more than 100,000 rounds, largely due to fivesomes.
Griffith Park and Rancho are L.A. city courses and do not play fivesomes.
The most heavily played in SoCal are in no particular order

Meadowlark, Willowick, Harding, Wilson, Rancho Park, Los Verdes, La Mirada, Santa Anita, Balboa, Encino, Weschester, Recreation Park, Sky dump links, El Dorado Park, Victoria and Alondra Park.

The picture tells you all you need to know about the future of Ala Wai.  That is prime real estate.

[Bruce Katona]

Here's another way to get the rounds up to the numbers suggested - use the "bunny-hop" when starting out each morning.   Start out a foursome/fivesome/etc. at each of the 1st 10 holes so you get 40- 50 golfers off at the 6 AM tee slot and go forward from there with your 6-8 minute tee times.  The greens fee is discounted slightly for each hole not played during the full or 9 hole round.   This adds 12,000-15,000 rouds/year to the facilities total in a 300 day golfing year (like Hawaii would be).

[Trey Stiles]

OK , Here's the real deal on high rounds @ La Mirada ( Lynn is correct , it's LA county )

I managed LaMirada for a few months back in 1984 , prior to moving to Houston.

Here's how you do it :
- every tee time is booked solid from slightly before sunup till about 2 hrs before dark
- you book the back nine solid with 9 hole rounds ( fivesomes ) for the 1st 2 hrs
- you have huge walk up demand and every group is paired up to 5
- Tee Times are a combo of 7 & 8 minutes
- the players know the drill , nobody shows up late
- the course is easy and it's hard to loose a ball

One day my relief got sick and I worked the shop all day ( just me and a cart guy till noon when we added a range guy ) .... 432 players that day and all went smooth as silk .

I think 400+ players in SoCal is easier than 250 player in Houston.

[astavrides]

OK , Here's the real deal on high rounds @ La Mirada ( Lynn is correct , it's LA county )

my bad.  LA county.  I was right the first time.  (i was right before I became wrong).

[Bryan Drennon]

Played Ala Wei while on my honeymoon in 99. Well, I played 6 holes and quit after 2 and a half hours. My wife said that God was doing that to me for playing golf on my honeymoon. I told her I would definitely not play golf on my next honeymoon.

[Russell Lo]

I get to play Ala Wai a lot and bet they count 9 hole rounds. On weekdays they allow 12 groups out the back before the regulars make the turn. In addition they allow 9 hole play at 2:30 pm, with Twilight at 3pm. By the time the 9 holers finish they have groups going out front and back at 4:30.

the course closes 4-5 times per year due to rain, but other than that it is always crowded. the greens are in great shape, and I'm not even qualifying that with "with all the play they get". It can be a brutally long round also as many playing there shuld be taking up tennis.

Anyone planning on playing there should email me and I'll show you how the locals do it.

[Carl Nichols]

What top 100 (or so) course gets the least amount of play? 

[Sam Maryland]

6 minute tee times at a public course is an impossibility...at least as far as being on time when hour-2 comes around.  And doubly impossible when you start talking about 5-somes, 6-somes. 

I think Los Verdes alternates 7 and 8 minute tee-times and they are NEVER on time.  Not long ago I was there and had a 9am time, made the turn at 12.30pm.  Went in and talked with the manger about it and he hemmed and hawed and said "but you didn't go off until 9.30am"to which I said "that's even worse"!!  To his credit he had the ranger bring me a $25 range card and later he did admit the tee time  spacings are dictated to him and he'd prefer to use 9 minutes (at a minimum) all day.  I bet the rounds played count wouldn't change one iota if they did.

Think about it...let's assume the first time is 5am, next time is 5.06am.  So four guys are on the tee ready to hit at 5am, all four power the tee shots out in 30 seconds each (includes the time to tee it up, take a practice swing, hit it, watch it, pick the tee up, repeat 3 more times).  Then they take 1.5 minutes to run to where they hit it, FIND IT, and then 2 more minutes to power out four more shots, and THEN .5 minutes to run ahead so the next group can have a ball in the air at exactly 5.06am -- that's just absurd. 

And then we are going to assume 5 (or 6!) people can do this in the allotted 6 minutes. 

Impossible.


(this example assumes 1 practice swing per player, not the 5 that seem so common!)

[John_Conley]

What top 100 (or so) course gets the least amount of play? 

Sanctuary and Whispering Pines are among the least played.

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