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Tom MacWood

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Herbert Warren Wind introduced (or reintroduced) his big 4 to the modern American golfer in the 1970s: Mackenzie, Macdonald, Ross and Tillinghast. Wind is largely responsible for creating the mythology of the American amateur architect that we now take for granted - the story of Wilson at Merion, Crump at PV and Nevill & Grant at Pebble Beach. For some reason he ingored Leeds from his home town of Boston. Wind was also an important promoter of RTJ, which obviously had a major impact on modern golf architecture.

Does Wind get enough credit and/or blame for forming our common understanding of golf architecture history?

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 07:05:40 AM »
What other aspects of golf architecture history did Wind write about that affect our current understanding?

Adam Clayman

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 08:05:29 AM »
Tom. Wish I could contribute more but all I know of Wind is Brad Klein's wonderful story about caddying for him @ TOC. Neville & grant? Not Egan?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 09:50:43 AM »
Interesting topic Tom from a guy that has been recently granted the offer you have...brings some of your your motivations on here into a clearer picture...

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 10:00:39 AM »
Interesting topic Tom from a guy that has been recently granted the offer you have...brings some of your your motivations on here into a clearer picture...

Jim
Please tell me what my motivations are? And what offer are you referring to?

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 10:09:55 AM »
Tom. Wish I could contribute more but all I know of Wind is Brad Klein's wonderful story about caddying for him @ TOC. Neville & grant? Not Egan?

To my knowledge Wind never mentioned Egan's contribution, nor Fowler, Mackenzie or Hunter. Fowler's contribution is a little more obscure, but Egan's contribution gained considerable publicity.

TEPaul

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 10:42:09 AM »

“Herbert Warren Wind introduced (or reintroduced) his big 4 to the modern American golfer in the 1970s: Mackenzie, Macdonald, Ross and Tillinghast. Wind is largely responsible for creating the mythology of the American amateur architect that we now take for granted - the story of Wilson at Merion, Crump at PV and Nevill & Grant at Pebble Beach. For some reason he ingored Leeds from his home town of Boston. Wind was also an important promoter of RTJ, which obviously had a major impact on modern golf architecture.

Does Wind get enough credit and/or blame for forming our common understanding of golf architecture history?”




Tom:

This is precisely the kind of subject and question that gets my interest and attention and might bring me back to participating on here if we can discuss subjects like this. I have a huge interest in this kind of subject and question----eg particularly those fascinating so-called “amateur/sportsmen” architects of that early era mentioned by Herbert Warren Wind and by me in two magazine and program articles on the original Philadelphia School of Architecture (Pennsylvania School with Fownes) and perhaps one upcoming for the 2009 Walker Cup program.

I would love to discuss if Wind gets enough credit and/or blame for forming our common understanding of golf architecture history!!



And how about this quotation on this particular subject you put on another thread recently from Bernard Darwin?





“This is some of what Darwin wrote about the controversy:

"So much for the question as to whether or not a few gentlemen, mere atoms in the great world of golf, should be allowed to enter certain competitions. There is a wider question, which concerns the golfing community in general. It is for the general good that courses should be laid out as well as possible, and any legislation tending to restrict rather than to encourage the best work might be deemed as being in legal phraseology, contrary to public policy. At the risk of a rather invidious assertion it may be said that most of the best modern work in the laying out of courses has been done by amateurs--nor, indeed, is it all surprising that this is so. To lay out a course is a task requiring keen powers of observation and large amount of hard and intelligent thought. The professional though, as a rule, a charming companion and possessed of considerable shrewdness, has not had the same advantages as the amateur; and the better and wider education of the latter generally bears fruit in the form of holes more carefully thought out and far more original. There are, needless to say, professionals who lay out very interesting courses; but the typical professionally-designed course is on strongly stereotyped lines. The professional in times past clung too affectionately to the 'steeplechase' system of cross-bunkers; and the abandonment of that system, the adoption of the more ingenious one of lateral bunkers, and the enlightened gospel which demands that the shot should be not merely hit but placed, we owe chiefly to the amateurs. Of course, in order to acquire the necessary knowledge and experience the amateur has to devote himself heart and solid to the game, and in that case there is a good deal in the oft-quoted dictum of an old Scottish professional that the only difference between Mr. So-and-so and the professionals was that he had 'mair to eat and mair to drink.'"



As with Herbert Warren Wind does Darwin get enough credit and/or blame for his articulation of that amateur architect from that early time and the whys and hows, according to Darwin, of what that type of amateur architect could accomplish and did accomplish?


It’s a great subject and thanks for posting it on a thread, not the least reason being both Darwin and Wind are considered to be arguably golf and golf architecture’s greatest observers, chroniclers and writers!

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 10:55:27 AM »
With Wind and Darwin you have two completely different situations. Wind is writing history; Darwin is reporting and commenting upon current events. Wind was romanticizing the one-hit wonder amateur architect; Darwin was defending the amateur golfer's right to make a living as a golf architect. He was defending men like Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Sutherland, et al who were beginning to dominate the field.

BCrosby

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 11:25:46 AM »
Tom Mac -

Distinguishing writing about current events and writing history, in the case of Bernard Darwin (or any other great journalist for that matter), is a distinction without much of a difference. Particularly so when Darwin turned to architectural subjects.

Your Darwin quote is Exhibit A.

Bob

Dale Jackson

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 11:36:57 AM »
Tom, I know this is not quite what you are getting at but HWW's articles on Royal Dornoch and Ballybunion almost single handedly focused the attention of the North American golfer on those two great courses, and, I would submit, opened up the eyes of many to the charms of links golf.  It might be a stetch but could it be that the emergence of the so-called minimalist school was based, in part, on his seminal writings on those courses?

For me personally, reading and rereading the two articles in the 1980s led to an overwhelming desire to those courses and other links for myself.  I did so for the first time in 1990 and have now been back 10 times and counting.  Exposure to that style of golf completely changed my understanding of the game and of course architecture. 

I would be interested to hear from the architects on this site if their exposure to HWW's writings had a similar impact.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Bill_McBride

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 11:49:17 AM »
Wind always got my attention when it came to his writing about golf across the ocean.  I loved North to Dornoch when I read it first, and I never did stop laughing about the President's Putter.  His reports in the New Yorker were regular reading in my home growing up, as my dad was a big fan too.

Glad to see you back, TEP, have you been well?

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 11:52:00 AM »
Darwin's commentary is first hand and contemporaneous, he knew all the players and issues involved. It was controversy that was widely reported in the press.

Wind's is second or third hand and is romanticized for maximum entertainment value. Wind had no personal contact with subjects he was writing about; he was documenting events that occurred decades earlier. He was also covering new ground, no one had written about the one hit wonder phenomenon before him.

And it should be restated the subjects they are writing about are completely different.

Bill_McBride

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 11:55:01 AM »
Tom MacWood, I don't understand the discrepancy between your initial post and post #5.  In the first you say Wind introduced (or reintroduced) Mackenzie to the modern American golfer, in post #5 you say "To my knowledge Wind never mentioned Egan's contribution, nor Fowler, Mackenzie or Hunter."

Could you clarify what you are trying to say here?  The two statements seem contradictory.  I really don't remember a lot of Wind discussion of Mackenzie but I'm sure he had some articles on the origins of Augusta at the least.

Peter Pallotta

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 12:01:27 PM »
Edit

Peter
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:28:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 12:07:29 PM »
Tom, I know this is not quite what you are getting at but HWW's articles on Royal Dornoch and Ballybunion almost single handedly focused the attention of the North American golfer on those two great courses, and, I would submit, opened up the eyes of many to the charms of links golf.  It might be a stetch but could it be that the emergence of the so-called minimalist school was based, in part, on his seminal writings on those courses?

For me personally, reading and rereading the two articles in the 1980s led to an overwhelming desire to those courses and other links for myself.  I did so for the first time in 1990 and have now been back 10 times and counting.  Exposure to that style of golf completely changed my understanding of the game and of course architecture.  

I would be interested to hear from the architects on this site if their exposure to HWW's writings had a similar impact.

I agree completely, and that's the point I'm trying to make. Wind was the first to document the history of golf architect in America (HB Martin didn't get much traction). We all enjoyed reading HWW's essays, and they have had a major influence upon our understanding of golf architecture history, and to my knowledge he had no rivals, in contrast in Darwin's time there were many commentating.

When you have one dominant voice is there a danger of history being distorted?

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 12:11:06 PM »
Tom MacWood, I don't understand the discrepancy between your initial post and post #5.  In the first you say Wind introduced (or reintroduced) Mackenzie to the modern American golfer, in post #5 you say "To my knowledge Wind never mentioned Egan's contribution, nor Fowler, Mackenzie or Hunter."

Could you clarify what you are trying to say here?  The two statements seem contradictory.  I really don't remember a lot of Wind discussion of Mackenzie but I'm sure he had some articles on the origins of Augusta at the least.

Adam was asking about Wind's account of Pebble Beach, and the fact he only mentioned Nevill & Grant's contribution.

Bill_McBride

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2009, 12:12:53 PM »
Tom MacWood, I don't understand the discrepancy between your initial post and post #5.  In the first you say Wind introduced (or reintroduced) Mackenzie to the modern American golfer, in post #5 you say "To my knowledge Wind never mentioned Egan's contribution, nor Fowler, Mackenzie or Hunter."

Could you clarify what you are trying to say here?  The two statements seem contradictory.  I really don't remember a lot of Wind discussion of Mackenzie but I'm sure he had some articles on the origins of Augusta at the least.

Adam was asking about Wind's account of Pebble Beach, and the fact he only mentioned Nevill & Grant's contribution.

Okay, gotcha, thanks.  I wa a bit confused.

BCrosby

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2009, 12:20:43 PM »
"... it may be said that most of the best modern work in the laying out of courses has been done by amateurs.... The professional though... has not had the same advantages as the amateur; and the better and wider education of the latter generally bears fruit in the form of holes more carefully thought out and far more original. ...the typical professionally-designed course is on strongly stereotyped lines. The professional in times past clung too affectionately to the 'steeplechase' system of cross-bunkers; and the abandonment of that system, the adoption of the more ingenious one of lateral bunkers, and the enlightened gospel which demands that the shot should be not merely hit but placed, we owe chiefly to the amateurs."

If that is not writing history then we need to have a separate conversation about what "writing history" is supposed to mean.

The more interesting question is the amateur/professional thing. As with people like Crump and Wilson, there were early amateur designers in England, most of whom - unlike Crump and Wilson - went on to careers in the profession. But not always. Colt redesigned Rye as an amateur while working as a solicitor in a nearby town and went on to a long career. Low and Paton make significant and controversial revisions to Woking, but did not go on to major careers. Mallaby-Deeley and Purves (sp?) also comes to mind as a one shot designers. There were probably others I am forgetting.

So there are some intriguing overlaps and differences in the situations Darwin and HWW were talking about.

Bob  

« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 12:35:34 PM by BCrosby »

Phil_the_Author

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2009, 12:22:10 PM »
Tom,

You begin the discussion by stating, "Herbert Warren Wind introduced (or reintroduced) his big 4 to the modern American golfer in the 1970s: Mackenzie, Macdonald, Ross and Tillinghast..."

Is it your contention that our views of these four architect are predominantly due to what Wind wrote or are just making a statement about Wind's views of these four (and others)?

DMoriarty

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 12:45:46 PM »
Interesting topic Tom from a guy that has been recently granted the offer you have...brings some of your your motivations on here into a clearer picture...


Jim,  do you mind clarifying what you are talking about?   What, exactly, is the offer that has been granted to Tom MacWood.   I don't recall seeing any such offer, but maybe I missed it?

What offer?  For what?  Does it apply to me as well?  What does this offer have to do with this thread, which seems interesting enough to me?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2009, 12:55:15 PM »
Speaking of amateur architects and history vs current, his game story labeleling Oakmont a "nasty old brute" triggered one of history's more infamous bouts of amateur architecting.

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2009, 12:58:42 PM »
"... it may be said that most of the best modern work in the laying out of courses has been done by amateurs--nor, indeed, is it all surprising that this is so. To lay out a course is a task requiring keen powers of observation and large amount of hard and intelligent thought. The professional though... has not had the same advantages as the amateur; and the better and wider education of the latter generally bears fruit in the form of holes more carefully thought out and far more original. ...the typical professionally-designed course is on strongly stereotyped lines. The professional in times past clung too affectionately to the 'steeplechase' system of cross-bunkers; and the abandonment of that system, the adoption of the more ingenious one of lateral bunkers, and the enlightened gospel which demands that the shot should be not merely hit but placed, we owe chiefly to the amateurs."

If that is not writing history then we need to have a separate conversation about what "writing history" is supposed to mean.

The more interesting question is the amateur/professional thing. As with people like Crump and Wilson, there were early amateur designers in England, most of whom - unlike Crump and Wilson - went on to careers in the profession. But not always. Colt redesigned Rye as an amateur while working as a solicitor in a nearby town and went on to a long career. Low and Paton make significant and controversial revisions to Woking, but did not go on to major careers. Mallaby-Deeley and Purves (sp?) also comes to mind as a one shot designers. There were probably others I am forgetting.

So there are some intriguing overlaps and differences in the situations Darwin and HWW were talking about.

Bob  


Bob
Darwin is giving his report on current events some historical perspective, and that historical perspective was based upon his own personal experiences. I don't believe Wind had any personal knowledge of or experience with the one hit wonders.

In addition to Woking, Low was responsible for a new bunkering scheme at TOC. He also wrote extensively on the subject and was major influence on Colt, Simpson and others. Paton later collaborated with Guy Campbell, and wrote on the subject. Mallaby-Deely overhauled Princes-Mitcham before building Princes-Sandwich, and wrote on the subject. Purves was involved with the design of several golf courses, before and after Sandwich, and wrote on the subject. I don't believe these men were romanticized in quite the same way Wind romanticized Wilson, Crump etc., and perhaps as a result they are largely forgotten.

I agree there are parallels with Darwin and Wind, for example Wind promoted RTJ and Darwin promoted several architects of his era. They were also the most influential voices of their time. The difference that intrigues me however is Wind's major influence on our understanding of golf architecture history.

Tom MacWood

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Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2009, 01:08:10 PM »
Tom,

You begin the discussion by stating, "Herbert Warren Wind introduced (or reintroduced) his big 4 to the modern American golfer in the 1970s: Mackenzie, Macdonald, Ross and Tillinghast..."

Is it your contention that our views of these four architect are predominantly due to what Wind wrote or are just making a statement about Wind's views of these four (and others)?

I'm saying Wind reintroduced the Golden Age to the modern American golfer. I had never heard of those men before reading Wind, and I've read similar comments from Doak, Klein and Morrissett. He was the first to bring them to our attention. First impressions often have a big impact.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 01:10:32 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2009, 02:16:44 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Where do you think Wind got his information on Wilson and the other amateur architects?

Phil_the_Author

Re: HW Wind and our understanding of golf architecture history
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2009, 02:27:41 PM »
Tom,

You stated, "I'm saying Wind reintroduced the Golden Age to the modern American golfer. I had never heard of those men before reading Wind, and I've read similar comments from Doak, Klein and Morrissett. He was the first to bring them to our attention. First impressions often have a big impact..."

Would you say then that his "reintroduction" of these men to us was actually one of knowledge rather than understanding? I don't view that as a semantical word argument but as something of a defining point. In my opinion, the generation from 1950 until today has been slowly appreciating the role that the golf course architect plays in defining both the quality of a course and the challenges that the game has to offer.

For example, the name Winged Foot has always represented golf at the highest of levels, yet today we now see it as representing the highest levels of golf course architectural design as well. Yet when it was designed in the 1920's it was immediately appreciated for its architectural qualities in writings of the day.

So what I am really getting at is this; what occurred to cause the everyday golf writer and golfer to stop paying attention to architectural excellence?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 02:29:21 PM by Philip Young »