Ballybunion Olde & Pebble: a bunch of ordinary holes?

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Tang, in his blog about his Ireland trip, wrote:

"The first 6 holes at Ballybunion are super ordinary. The play mostly along a road and trailer park, and that graveyard. But after that, each of the remaining holes are unbelievably scenic and very hard."

While there is some (endless?) debate, many say Pebble also has several ordinary holes.  That lowers Pebble in the eyes of many on this DG.  I think that also is why Doak gave Pebble a 9.  Though Doak rated Ballybunion a 10.

So my questions are:

1.  Do you all agree that Ballybunion has six ordinary holes?
2.  If so, do you believe Ballybunion is one of the world's great courses?  One of Ireland's greats?
3.  Are Pebble and Ballybunion like each other, in that both have a largish number of ordinary holes?
4.  Can a course with six ordinary holes be a Doak 9, much less a 10?  i.e. are 12-13 fantastic holes enough to make up for 5-6 average ones? 

[Sean_A]

Jim Tang, in his blog about his Ireland trip, wrote:

"The first 6 holes at Ballybunion are super ordinary. The play mostly along a road and trailer park, and that graveyard. But after that, each of the remaining holes are unbelievably scenic and very hard."

While there is some (endless?) debate, many say Pebble also has several ordinary holes.  That lowers Pebble in the eyes of many on this DG.  I think that also is why Doak gave Pebble a 9.  Though Doak rated Ballybunion a 10.

So my questions are:

1.  Do you all agree that Ballybunion has six ordinary holes?
2.  If so, do you believe Ballybunion is one of the world's great courses?  One of Ireland's greats?
3.  Are Pebble and Ballybunion like each other, in that both have a largish number of ordinary holes?
4.  Can a course with six ordinary holes be a Doak 9, much less a 10?  i.e. are 12-13 fantastic holes enough to make up for 5-6 average ones? 

1. Ballybunion most certainly does not have six ordinary holes.  Of the opening six, at least three are very good.  Being isolated away from the sea does not equal ordinary.

2. I have never seen a better course than Ballybunion.  The only courses I have seen which I am certain are in its class of quality are  Sandwich and Merion.  If Merion and Sandwich are great courses than so is Ballybunion.  So far as Ireland goes, Ballybunion is the best of the lot. 

3. See answer to question #1.

4. I don't know, ask Doak.  In this case of Ballybunion it doesn't have six ordinary holes.

Ciao

 

[Jonathan Cummings]

You know I tend to agree with you Jim.  I find myself moving Bally down in my personal rankings and Lahinch up.  I have RCD, Lahinch, Bally has my own 1, 2, 3 courses in Ireland.  Pebble is way behind all three.  JC

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'll just reiterate what Sean said...

The first at Ballybunion is a pretty good hole, helped by the "Mrs Simpson" bunker in the middle of the fairway which creates angles in to the green.

The second has a wonderful approach up through the dunes to the raised green... Difficult to take enough club here.

The green complex on the third I like quite a lot... A good par three in my book.

Four is a fairly average Par five

Five had some interesting Tom Simpson bunkers but has been ruined by Tom Watson overbunkering

Six is an absolutely fantastic hole... Bunkerless and yet full of strategy... The dip to the front and left of the green makes it...

It most certainly doesn't open with six ordinary holes...

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Doak clarified on this site that a course can be a 10 without having every hole be spectacular... here's the exchange from way back when - I saved it because this is my contribution to the betterment of golf:

GCA 7/11/12008

DOAK:
Tom H:  You are right about the definition of a "10" in The Confidential Guide.  People are always quoting it to tell me why some course is worthy, or not worthy; and I really didn't mean it that way.  Ballybunion is one of the 10's on the Doak scale (and probably not the only one) where there are a couple of holes of which I don't think so highly ... but I still gave it a 10, so my definition must be not quite right.

I guess a better definition would be that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole.  However, I do not have enough cash on hand to buy back all of the Confidential Guides and make the edit.

HUCKABY
LOL!

Of course we cannot and shall not have all of the CG's edited... but given that the coin of the realm IN THIS FORUM for evaulating golf courses does seem to be your scale... and people do misapply this so often... how about one and all HERE give up on this "every hole must be fantastic" way of looking at a Doak 10, and rather look at it as Tom now explains (which I always kinda figured, btw - patting myself on the back):

10: Nearly perfect.  Every hole at the very least adds something of value to the course as a whole. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

Whaddya think?  Start here and perhaps others get the idea...


Doak then agreed to that definition.  I nterestlingly I have seen it used in magazine articles and other quotes from Tom after this exchange.

SO... that settles that about what may be a 10.  Do Balllybunion Old and/or Pebble Beach qualify?  Well they both sure do as I see things... for pretty much the reasons Sean states.   Doak himself also obviously has Ballybunion as a 10.  I thought he had Pebble Beach as such also, but I do not recall.  Regarding Pebble anyway, others do disagree, quite vehemently - they do not see it as nearly this worthy.  Poor souls.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak clarified on this site that a course can be a 10 without having every hole be spectacular... here's the exchange from way back when - I saved it because this is my contribution to the betterment of golf:

GCA 7/11/12008

DOAK:
Tom H:  You are right about the definition of a "10" in The Confidential Guide.  People are always quoting it to tell me why some course is worthy, or not worthy; and I really didn't mean it that way.  Ballybunion is one of the 10's on the Doak scale (and probably not the only one) where there are a couple of holes of which I don't think so highly ... but I still gave it a 10, so my definition must be not quite right.

I guess a better definition would be that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole.  However, I do not have enough cash on hand to buy back all of the Confidential Guides and make the edit.

HUCKABY
LOL!

Of course we cannot and shall not have all of the CG's edited... but given that the coin of the realm IN THIS FORUM for evaulating golf courses does seem to be your scale... and people do misapply this so often... how about one and all HERE give up on this "every hole must be fantastic" way of looking at a Doak 10, and rather look at it as Tom now explains (which I always kinda figured, btw - patting myself on the back):

10: Nearly perfect.  Every hole at the very least adds something of value to the course as a whole. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

Whaddya think?  Start here and perhaps others get the idea...


Doak then agreed to that definition.  I nterestlingly I have seen it used in magazine articles and other quotes from Tom after this exchange.

SO... that settles that about what may be a 10.  Do Balllybunion Old and/or Pebble Beach qualify?  Well they both sure do as I see things... for pretty much the reasons Sean states.   Doak himself also obviously has Ballybunion as a 10.  I thought he had Pebble Beach as such also, but I do not recall.  Regarding Pebble anyway, others do disagree, quite vehemently - they do not see it as nearly this worthy.  Poor souls.

 

Pebble is a 9 in my copy, so is San Francisco Golf Club,   Go figure.  The 1963 Pebble?  Absolutely 10.  The cart paths alone drop it to 9, so I agree with Mr. Doak.

[Carl Nichols]

Tom:
Did you create a macro with that exchange, so you can post it into threads with one keystroke?  

[Jason Topp]

So my questions are:

1.  Do you all agree that Ballybunion has six ordinary holes? No.  1-6 are not as scenic as the rest but as golf holes the hold up quite well - particularly, the 2nd, 3rd and 6th 
2.  If so, do you believe Ballybunion is one of the world's great courses?  One of Ireland's greats? N/A
3.  Are Pebble and Ballybunion like each other, in that both have a largish number of ordinary holes?No
4.  Can a course with six ordinary holes be a Doak 9, much less a 10?  i.e. are 12-13 fantastic holes enough to make up for 5-6 average ones?  In my mind no. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:
Did you create a macro with that exchange, so you can post it into threads with one keystroke?  

I am not nearly so clever for that.  But let's just say I do keep the text of it close at hand.

 

[ClarkW]

IMHO-- other than the unsightliness of the caravan park and chainlink fence on holes #1-3 and the fence on #6, those holes are certainly better than "ordinary". Unfortunately, holes #4 and 5 qualify as ordinary, somewhat boring slogs of straight back to back par 5s-- however, they might be your last chance at birdie for awhile!

Ironically, I seem to remember that the holes were re-numbered for the Irish Open that was held there a few years ago. So #4 and 5 played as #17 and 18-- completely for the sake of accomodating the crowds along the road. However, I further believe the "halfway house" located at the current sixth hole is there because that was originally the opening hole-- or was it the location of the original clubhouse? Can anyone confirm this?

[Ally Mcintosh]

IMHO-- other than the unsightliness of the caravan park and chainlink fence on holes #1-3 and the fence on #6, those holes are certainly better than "ordinary". Unfortunately, holes #4 and 5 qualify as ordinary, somewhat boring slogs of straight back to back par 5s-- however, they might be your last chance at birdie for awhile!

Ironically, I seem to remember that the holes were re-numbered for the Irish Open that was held there a few years ago. So #4 and 5 played as #17 and 18-- completely for the sake of accomodating the crowds along the road. However, I further believe the "halfway house" located at the current sixth hole is there because that was originally the opening hole-- or was it the location of the original clubhouse? Can anyone confirm this?

Clark, the 6th was indeed the opening hole (from 1926 to 1993) and the halfway house is positioned where the previous (but not original) clubhouse was. Although the new routing does bury the indifferent holes in the middle of the front nine, it also results in a course unbalanced in length with the back nine much shorter, something that was maybe a factor when hosting the Irish Open... The current 18th green would not be able to accomodate any spectators either.

[Doug Siebert]

Ballybunion doesn't have 6 ordinary holes, it has 2 - the two par 5s.  Maybe I'll grant you the first as well, but then few links courses have a strong opening hole.

The last 13 holes are the best 13 holes in a row anywhere on the planet, any of them would be the best hole on the course if moved to 99.9% of other courses.  That's why its a 10.

[Tom_Doak]

If I agreed that Ballybunion had six ordinary holes, there is no way I would have given it a 10.  The first hole is a terrific little opener.  The second is a really strong par-4.  The third is a very difficult three from a high tee.  And Tom Watson rated the sixth (yes, the sixth) among the 18 best holes in the world.  Only the par-5's are ordinary, and in truth, they are no more ordinary than par fives on most other links, save Muirfield and St. Andrews.

I messed up in my definition of a "10" by implying perfection, because there is nobody who hates the "checklist" form of architectural critique more than I do.  The only way you get a really high score on the Doak scale is to transcend ordinary golf architecture and achieve something exceptional.  Without that, I'm not sure there is any way you can get more than a 7.

[Tom Huckaby]

I messed up in my definition of a "10" by implying perfection, because there is nobody who hates the "checklist" form of architectural critique more than I do.  The only way you get a really high score on the Doak scale is to transcend ordinary golf architecture and achieve something exceptional.  Without that, I'm not sure there is any way you can get more than a 7.

That's OK Tom, I got your back.