Pictures of historic Simpson bunkers

« **on:** October 06, 2009, 12:48:57 PM »

Quick question to the historians here; does anybody have good old pics of Simpson bunkers with lace edges?

I have tons of pics of old Colt, MacKenzie and even Fowler bunkers with lace edges, and of course many many sketches of mr Simpson himself, but stragely enough no historic Simpson bunker pics.

I am asking because I would like to use such historic pics for a course analysis I'm doing for a Simpson course.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:20:37 PM »

Frank
You're right, there are ton of Simpson sketches and very few photos. His book with Newton Wethered is a perfect example, I don't believe there is a single photograph is that book. Here are a couple with Simpson's description and instructions.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:44:50 PM »

Not sure how anyone could tell those bunkers from Fowler, Colt or Mackenzie bunkers of a certain vintage.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:38:40 PM »

Frank,
We did quite a bit of reseach on Simpson for a book a few years ago. Some of our findings on his thoughts/philosphies are in there if you have a copy (no photos). I am traveling the rest of this week but might have some old photos in my files. I can look this weekend.
Good luck,
Mark

« **Reply #4 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:51:33 AM »

Tom, many thanks for these two pictures, this is exactly the sort of pics I needed! What is the source if I may ask?
Another interesting fact is that the writer (Simpson?) mentions that to create the lace edge bunkers you need a special tool. Does it state elsewhere what this tool is?

Mark, ofcourse I have your book, but I had not looked at the simpson section yet. If you have any old pics of Simpson that would be great.

Bill, Colt bunkers had more simple shapes (oval, triangular), McKenzie bunkers often were larger than those of Simpson. Simpson seemed to like longer narrower bunkers often closely wrapped around greensides

« **Reply #5 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:46:08 AM »

Frank this is from a Sutton's flier showing the holes (now NLE) that Simpson did on Sunningdale new under construction.

Frank do you think he had a slightly simpler style for Links courses judging by modern photo's, or is it due to maintenance practices?

« **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:40:26 AM »

Frank
Tom's photos come from the book "The Game of Golf", part of the Lonsdale Library. Simpson wrote a number of chapters in the book on golf architecture and upkeep. It is an excellent book.

The only other Simpson bunker photos I am aware of are in the book "Golf Courses: Design Construction and Upkeep, edited by Martin Sutton, the 1950 edition. Simpson also contributes a chapter. Here are the two pics of the New Zealand bunkers from the book.
cheers Neil

« **Reply #7 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:47:41 AM »

Quote from: Neil_Crafter on October 07, 2009, 03:40:26 AM

Frank
Tom's photos come from the book "The Game of Golf", part of the Lonsdale Library. Simpson wrote a number of chapters in the book on golf architecture and upkeep. It is an excellent book.

The only other Simpson bunker photos I am aware of are in the book "Golf Courses: Design Construction and Upkeep, edited by Martin Sutton, the 1950 edition. Simpson also contributes a chapter. Here are the two pics of the New Zealand bunkers from the book.
cheers Neil

Neil

Does the book state which holes these are? The 1st looks like the 18th, but slightly out of position. The second looks like#7, but I don't see the flag for #13 on the right. Right away I can see there were far fewer trees on the course than today. What year are these pix?

Ciao

« **Reply #8 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:53:44 AM »

I will add a couple more photos that Simpson used to show Arana how bunkers should be built, with Simpson's comments on them.

The third one is New Zealand's eighteen but I don't know about the others. The last one is from the Sutton book and Simpson himself is in the background.

Regards,

Alfonso

« **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:57:51 AM »

Paging Richard Pennell, this must be the 18th?

It looks like there was an extension of the green behind the RHS bunker that’s no longer there?

« **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:26:31 AM »

Sean
So many questions!!

No the book does not give hole numbers, the captions are included with the pics.
I don't really know NZ so can't offer any opinion.
As for a date of the photos, as I said the book was published in 1950 so there's your latest date. How much earlier I don't know. Gauging by the golfers' clothes I'd hazard a guess 1945-1950 as a likely timeframe.

Alfonso - nice pics and thanks for sharing these.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:49:14 AM »

Tony, Alfonso and Neil, many thanks for sharing these pics. This is exactly the strength of a medium like GCA and GAP, that one through open sharing can quickly get access to invaluable (historic) information!

Neil, interestingly I have a scan of Simpsons chapters in that book, however the pictures are so poor I did not recognise them......

Funny enough I'm visiting NZ this weekend; will take the pics along to find out which greens they are and report back!

« **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:05:56 AM »

Quote from: Alfonso Erhardt on October 07, 2009, 03:53:44 AM

I will add a couple more photos that Simpson used to show Arana how bunkers should be built, with Simpson's comments on them.

The third one is New Zealand's eighteen but I don't know about the others. The last one is from the Sutton book and Simpson himself is in the background.

Regards,

Alfonso

Alfonso

That 2nd pic looks a lot like Rye's 3rd - though the green looks more built up than Rye's 3rd and there isn't a centre-line bunker.

Ciao

« **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:30:25 AM »

Frank
The source is The Game of Golf, published in 1931, written by Joyce & Roger Wethered and other authorities, and unfortunately TS does not describe the tool that gives the bunkers their irregular form. Here are three pictures of Chiberta and one Simpson's newly constructed ninth at Rye.

« **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:35:49 AM »

Frank
Is the course you are analyzing heathland, parkland or links? It appears to me TS's style varied somewhat depending on the type of golf course.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2009, 08:09:49 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on October 07, 2009, 03:47:41 AM

Quote from: Neil_Crafter on October 07, 2009, 03:40:26 AM
Frank
Tom's photos come from the book "The Game of Golf", part of the Lonsdale Library. Simpson wrote a number of chapters in the book on golf architecture and upkeep. It is an excellent book.

The only other Simpson bunker photos I am aware of are in the book "Golf Courses: Design Construction and Upkeep, edited by Martin Sutton, the 1950 edition. Simpson also contributes a chapter. Here are the two pics of the New Zealand bunkers from the book.
cheers Neil

Neil

Does the book state which holes these are? The 1st looks like the 18th, but slightly out of position. The second looks like#7, but I don't see the flag for #13 on the right. Right away I can see there were far fewer trees on the course than today. What year are these pix?

Ciao

Sean & Tony the 1st photo is of course the 18th, and although the bunker may have moved slightly over time through maintenance, I think it's more the angle of shot that gives the impression of the green extending further right. When you look at where the contour on the green that kicks the ball right is, it looks to me roughly the right distance from the edge. Greens always shrink a little to avoid scalping I suppose, but I don't think there's much in that instance.

The second photo has caused some heated discussion in the Office this morning! The bunkering is very like that on the 16th in shape, and it could easily be the 1st hole, too. We have also had the 7th, 9th, and 12th suggested by various parties. At the risk of looking foolish across the world, I reckon it is the 11th. The green looks like it falls off left, the large bunkers are almost perfectly positioned for today's hole, and I have it on good authority that there was a left greenside bunker once upon a time. Also, the treelines behind the green suggest Martyr's Lane to me. Would do you think?

Cheers

Richard

« **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2009, 08:30:29 AM »

Frank Pont asked me to post.

6 Spa as it was

« **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2009, 08:36:49 AM »

Tony,

You have reminded me that I have posted that picture before... The website shows the "then to now" comparison and appears to be championing the latter... If Frank is working on restoring that hole, then congrats and good luck...

Contrast below:

http://spa.mygolf.be/

« **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:21:24 AM »

Tom,

it's for Spa and Sart Tilman, both in Belgium.

Sart Tilman is part Parkland part Pine forest, soil is heavy clay. Very little heather remains. Due to heavy clay, and the limited construction budget Simpson had, the bunkers are rather shallow. See
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Belgium/Sart%20Tilman/index.html

Spa is in parts heathland, forest and parkland. Bunkers are much more pronounced, and more sculpted. See
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Belgium/Spa/index.html

At both courses the lace edges have disappeared and certain bunkers have lost their shapes.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:41:50 AM »

Interesting comment re: "the normal type of inartistic pot bunkers."

« **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2009, 06:17:43 AM »

Frank
Here are a couple more pictures including one of Spa. That picture of the 6th hole is spectacular.

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