[John Moore II]

Mike Sweeney-Just because Tobacco Road is unique doesn't mean its an 8. The Pit is unique as well, moreso a few years ago than now; The Pit was rated a 5. I put Tobacco Road a step above that. Now, I would actually put Tobacco Road a few steps above The Pit, but given that CCNC is a 6 and Pine Needles is not more than a 7, Tobacco Road is not higher than a 6. Pine Needles might not be an exceptionally unique course, but it is a mighty good one. Certainly it is no worse than the #3 course in the Sandhills, behind only #2 and potentially the North Course at Forest Creek. I might say Forest Creek is better than Pine Needles, but given 10 rounds to play between the two, I'd play 5 at each, they are very close together in quality.

Chip- Did you know that the current #17 at Pine Needles was originally the 18th? I think it is a better finishing hole than a 17th and also doesn't seem as odd in the routing. And I can't say that I agree with you about Needles being better than #2. I think #2 has a very good routing (I actually think Mid Pines has a better routing than Needles) and is certainly a much better test. I just have to say that #2 is the better course.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Hold the phone amigo before your barking gets out of control.

I'm not here to defend Digest -- nor did I with my previous post.

You sir painted with the widest of brushes when you made your assertion about raters -- in your application of the term you meant the lot of them follow the same formula.

Mike, if you have ever bothered to read what I have said about the weaknesses of what Digest does (see my recent thread applause regarding Kingsley as a good example) and you will see that I am not following the same footsteps.

When you say "Wardian hit and run crowd" -- let's be clear others hit for courses far differently than I and when they run they seem to favor a predictable type of course over and over again. My love of Kingsley / Black Mesa, et al of this type -- shows that to mean I am certainly not a bonafide Digest rater who marches to the beat of one type drummer.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Chip

Very much would like to hear your argument for the superiority of Pine Needles's routing over #2's.  Maybe I just can't get past the origins of the course being to sell real estate.  Also, some of the holes feel too similar to other Rosses in Pinehurst area and in NC.  But perhaps I am letting my #2 homerism show...

Mark

[Sean_A]

Chip

I am on board about #2's greens.  They are one of the great strengths of the course and one of the weaknesses.  Its a great idea pushed to extremes.  That said, the angles created at #2 are outstanding, its just a shame that the greens are so severe that it takes a very good golfer to take advantage - the margin of error is just too small.

I too would like to know how the routing for Pine Needles blows #2 away.  I don't even think there is any real difference between the routings of S Pines, Mid Pines and Pine Needles.  In fact, I prefer the rhythm of Mid Pines and S Pines over Pine Needles.

Mike

You could be right.  It could be that many on this site do tour based on the portfolio of archies.  I don't know, I was thinking of golfer touristas at large.  I don't pay much attention to the archie when making plans.  To be honest, unless there are some compelling or dog gone super value public course in the area, I nearly always would prefer to play a private course if it isn't too much hassle because they generally offer a better experience.   

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney-Just because Tobacco Road is unique doesn't mean its an 8. The Pit is unique as well, moreso a few years ago than now; The Pit was rated a 5. I put Tobacco Road a step above that. Now, I would actually put Tobacco Road a few steps above The Pit, but given that CCNC is a 6 and Pine Needles is not more than a 7, Tobacco Road is not higher than a 6. Pine Needles might not be an exceptionally unique course, but it is a mighty good one. Certainly it is no worse than the #3 course in the Sandhills, behind only #2 and potentially the North Course at Forest Creek. I might say Forest Creek is better than Pine Needles, but given 10 rounds to play between the two, I'd play 5 at each, they are very close together in quality.

John,

I think this is the problem with looking at things regionally, things get sanitized by putting your personal choices in to fit a list. Let's break out Tobacco Road according to definition:

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others) - I dont know the region that well, would most agree it is Top 5 in the region?

and worth a special trip to see. - for me it was worth it and I would go back.

Could have some drawbacks, - 16 was a let down for me.

but these will clearly be spelled out, -  16 along with the totally blind 18 green was an issue for me (and I play Yale!)

and it will make up for them with something really special - Special for me.

in addition to the generally excellent layout. - I played one set of tees up based on advice given here and it was a really fun round.

Getting beyound the Pinehurst region, there are a bunch of Pine Valley style courses which in general I prefer to Ross tree lined parkland.They are:

Pine Valley - 10
WW Pine Barrens - 8
Tobacco Road - 8
Galloway - 8
Hidden Creek - 7.5
Deltona - 6.5
Pine Barrens (NJ) 5
Pine Hill (NJ) - 5
Pine Ridge GC (LI) - 5
Hampton Hills (LI) - 4
Pine Hills (LI) - 4

Have not played Boston GC or Old Sandwich.

Maybe it is a style of golf that I prefer and if Matt Ward was not on this thread I could maybe push The Road to a 7.5, but I do think that it is more than just unique. In addition being a public tourist stop that probably has very slow rounds is not helping it with the locals. It is a visually stunning course crafted by a real artist. It seems that is a problem at some other Strantz courses, but at The Road it worked for me.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S.:

I am not normally a trophy hunter ... this past month I was touring the northeast with a client from overeas who IS trophy-hunting.

I've been to Tobacco Road, too, and generally liked it, but I'm not going to rate it here.  I've said enough for now without getting back into that business.  Although, this past week I received a legal notice about Google's plans to scan books under copyright, and it appears that I have more rights as an author if my books are still "in print" ... so maybe I'll have to republish the CG just to preserve my rights.

[JC Jones]

Mike S.:

I am not normally a trophy hunter ... this past month I was touring the northeast with a client from overeas who IS trophy-hunting.

I've been to Tobacco Road, too, and generally liked it, but I'm not going to rate it here.  I've said enough for now without getting back into that business.  Although, this past week I received a legal notice about Google's plans to scan books under copyright, and it appears that I have more rights as an author if my books are still "in print" ... so maybe I'll have to republish the CG just to preserve my rights.

Now you're talkin!!!

[Bill_McBride]

I think Doak gives Pebble Beach and San Francisco Golf Club an 8 on his scale.

Both are 9's in my 1996 edition.

Makes you marvel at the 10's of the world! 

[John Moore II]

Mike-Would you take a trip to Pinehurst only to see Tobacco Road? Thats a poor question for me to answer since I'm only an hour away. But I would not drive more than a few hours to see Tobacco Road. And no, I don't think TR is one of the 5 best in the region. If Tobacco Road is in the center and you go out 75 miles, you run into Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, the two courses at Forest Creek, The Dogwood at CCNC, Old North State, Old Chatham, Raleigh Country Club, Pine Needles and possibly some others. Now that is not to say I would choose to play some of those over Tobacco Road, but I feel those are all better courses than TR.

[PCCraig]

Mike S.:

I am not normally a trophy hunter ... this past month I was touring the northeast with a client from overeas who IS trophy-hunting.

I've been to Tobacco Road, too, and generally liked it, but I'm not going to rate it here.  I've said enough for now without getting back into that business.  Although, this past week I received a legal notice about Google's plans to scan books under copyright, and it appears that I have more rights as an author if my books are still "in print" ... so maybe I'll have to republish the CG just to preserve my rights.

Tom Doak-

I'm assuming that if a new print run is ordered, it wouldn't be updated, and just be a re-run? Or would you go back and update the courses you have seen recently that have been renovated or restored? (IE Pine Needles).

[Carl Johnson]

. . .

Getting beyound the Pinehurst region, there are a bunch of Pine Valley style courses which in general I prefer to Ross tree lined parkland.  . . .

Mike, what about Ross courses that were orginally designed by Ross without trees, had trees added over the years by well-meaning clubs, but from which the trees (or most of them) have now been removed?  I guess they you could say they are still parkland courses, but are certainly no longer "tree-lined."  Is it the Ross, the "tree-lined," or parkland that's the issue for you?

[Sean_A]

Mike-Would you take a trip to Pinehurst only to see Tobacco Road? Thats a poor question for me to answer since I'm only an hour away. But I would not drive more than a few hours to see Tobacco Road. And no, I don't think TR is one of the 5 best in the region. If Tobacco Road is in the center and you go out 75 miles, you run into Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, the two courses at Forest Creek, The Dogwood at CCNC, Old North State, Old Chatham, Raleigh Country Club, Pine Needles and possibly some others. Now that is not to say I would choose to play some of those over Tobacco Road, but I feel those are all better courses than TR.

John

When faced with what I think was a Tobacco Road $120 green fee this past spring I bailed for an invite to a private club at 2/3s the price and I would do it nearly every time.  But I sure as hell wasn't gonna stump up the money for S Pines (somewhere north of $100) as my 2nd choice and there was no way I was gonna pay the rate for Pine Needles or Mid Pines.  They are all good courses, but not good enough to justify £70 - that is a heck of a lot of money for those courses.  The Pinehurst areas is simply over-priced, but the only one of the lot which entices me back at those prices is The Road. 

Ciao 

[John Moore II]

Mike-Would you take a trip to Pinehurst only to see Tobacco Road? Thats a poor question for me to answer since I'm only an hour away. But I would not drive more than a few hours to see Tobacco Road. And no, I don't think TR is one of the 5 best in the region. If Tobacco Road is in the center and you go out 75 miles, you run into Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, the two courses at Forest Creek, The Dogwood at CCNC, Old North State, Old Chatham, Raleigh Country Club, Pine Needles and possibly some others. Now that is not to say I would choose to play some of those over Tobacco Road, but I feel those are all better courses than TR.

John

When faced with what I think was a Tobacco Road $120 green fee this past spring I bailed for an invite to a private club at 2/3s the price and I would do it nearly every time.  But I sure as hell wasn't gonna stump up the money for S Pines (somewhere north of $100) as my 2nd choice and there was no way I was gonna pay the rate for Pine Needles or Mid Pines.  They are all good courses, but not good enough to justify £70 - that is a heck of a lot of money for those courses.  The Pinehurst areas is simply over-priced, but the only one of the lot which entices me back at those prices is The Road. 

Ciao 

You are correct, the whole area is overpriced. It all comes from Pinehurst Resort and works its way down. From #2, to #4 and #8, then to Needles (being viewed as the best course not located at Pinehurst Resort) and then so on down the line. That being said, I wouldn't pay $120 for Tobacco Road. Not when I've played there for $25 on a coupon. And for what its worth, they jacked up that rate this year after they got the ratings from Golf World and Golf Digest; two years ago the high season rate was $75 IIRC.

[Chris DeNigris]

Overpriced?....Ummmmm, unless they are getting significantly fewer rounds than they'd like to I would think they are market priced.

[John Moore II]

Overpriced?....Ummmmm, unless they are getting significantly fewer rounds than they'd like to I would think they are market priced.

Thats only partly true. Pinehurst #2 is market priced, the rest are not. Granted, I have never played Pine Needles during high season, however, I once played when I was literally the only person on the course (early December) and 4 times in the summer when I never saw another person on the course. So, I am not sure if they are getting the rounds they want or not. I know at Mid South, we were not getting nearly the play we wanted back last summer at the rates they were charging; they have lowered the rates for this year, not sure if play is up or not. Do you not agree though that an entire market can be overpriced? That is generally the case in Pinehurst. In the spring, the rates are fine, in most cases, TR, Pine Needles and Southern Pines come to mind as the courses highly overpriced. The whole area though is highly overpriced for the summer and winter as very few places get more than 40 golfers a day on average during the months of Jan, Feb, early march, late May, June, July, Aug, Late Nov and Dec.

[Chris DeNigris]

John,

The market can only be temporarily overpriced...the price will be quickly adjusted (coupons, specials, etc) to reach the point where the amount of play provides the desired amount of revenue. Pinehurst the Resort might be the regional magnet and set the price ceiling, but after that it all boils down to desireability. That's why Mid-Pines might be $100 and the Pit only $60.

If you owned TR and you were mostly fully booked when your fee was $120, would you have any incentive to lower the price?

[John Moore II]

John,

If you owned TR and you were mostly fully booked when your fee was $120, would you have any incentive to lower the price?

No, but right now they are charging $59 ($39 is you have a coupon) and I promise I could tee off just about any time I wanted tomorrow. As a matter of fact, I am strongly considering playing there tomorrow or the next day.

[Chris DeNigris]

Wish I could join you...summer rates are a good thing!

If I could play hooky I'd think hard about the 6 hr drive...For me it's a Doak 7.5+

[John Moore II]

Wish I could join you...summer rates are a good thing!

If I could play hooky I'd think hard about the 6 hr drive...For me it's a Doak 7.5+

I just don't think it is. But again, this is all opinion. I just don't think its better than Pine Needles and certainly not better than Forest Creek. If Needles is not more than a 7, The Road can't be more than 6.5 in my mind. I really like it, but its just not that great a golf course.

*****So I went back through some of the archives and found a few of the things Tom himself (since we are talking about his form of rating) has said about Tobacco Road. I'm going to post links to the threads because I don't want to post individual sentences and such since generally context is needed to understand the comments. That being said, I get the impression he feels the course is somewhat easy for the better player and is not the biggest fan of the green complexes. You decide for yourself.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35757.msg727151/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30670.msg596427/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7926.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34338.msg689532/


Based on those comments, as it would seem Tom thinks there are several substantial drawbacks to the overall design, I can't see him putting the course higher than a 6; (I am not attempting to put words in his mouth however) I just don't see Tobacco Road being a course that is worth a long trip to see, at least not by itself.

[John Moore II]

So after viewing a thread about courses that Mr Doak rated a Zero in the CG, I have to go back to this.

This was posted before, but originally, was this guide meant to look at courses that were reputed to be good and give a candid analysis, steering people either towards them or away from them? I say this because I don't remember seeing a lot of courses rated in the range of 1-4. There are a good number of 5's and above, but given that I seem to recall a 3 being defined as something like the 'average course in America,' wouldn't this mean that a large number of courses in the CG should be rated as this or below? Or is the purpose not to rate every course (not possible anyway) but only those that people might considering going out of their way to play?

And would you say that its normal (for an average golfer) to have a large number of the courses he has played be rated in the 2-4 range? I recently went through and gave all the courses I have played a 1-10 number rating and came up with about 75% of the courses I have played being rated either 2, 3 or 4. I had about 10 Ones, no Zeros, and 18 or 19 courses that I thought were 5 or above. Would we say this is common for the average golfer?

And I really have ask what makes a course a zero. I have played one of the courses that Tom rated a zero, Kiln Creek. Unless there is something that I don't know, like it used to try to market itself as exceptional, best course in the Hampton Roads area, or they spent more money than Shadow Creek and Liberty National to create an average course, I just don't see it being a zero. Sure, houses encroach on every hole, there is a legit possiblity of hitting a ball onto the interstate on one hole, and it seems to drain poorly, but without some other circumstance with which I am not familiar, I don't see it as a zero. 2 or 3 certainly, but not zero. If Kiln Creek is a zero, then what is The Hamptons just down the road? That place is a few levels below the level of Kiln Creek.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The Confidential Guide lists EVERY SINGLE GOLF COURSE I had walked or played as of 1996.

The goal in writing the book was to give people an idea whether they were worth going to see or not.  However, my goal in choosing what courses to see was always to check out courses that someone or other had told me was worthwhile, so it is natural that there were not many below-average golf courses in the sample.

Kiln Creek got its zero rating because they placed several million yards of fill on the fairways, raising them up an average of 8-10 feet above the surrounding terrain and houses.  It was weird, and it cost a ridiculous amount of money, although my understanding is that the fill was forced upon the golf course architect late in the planning process so the developer wouldn't have to truck it off site, so in some odd way it actually saved money.  Even so, for a course which features several million cubic yards of fill, it seemed like a far-less-than-elegant solution, to the point where I believed it never should have been built the way it is ... and that's the definition of a zero.

People argue about the zeroes often, but I looked back a couple of years ago and discovered that half of them have been changed completely since the book came out, so maybe I wasn't as wrong as some said.

[John Moore II]

Tom-Thanks for the reply. If they had to more a few million yards of dirt to build what is there at Kiln Creek, I don't know what to say. Certainly not as good as it could have been given that amount of work.

Is that what really makes a course be considered a zero? A huge volume of work, with a completely un-natural design that just leads to a complete let down once you get there? I went there with no clue of the amount of work done to build it and while I was not impressed, I wasn't terribly disappointed, though I probably won't make the extra drive up there to play it again.

Would you agree with my statement that probably 75% of all golf courses in America probably fall in the 2-4 range? With a one being something really bad and a zero being just unmentionable, but not something you see all that often?

[John Moore II]

(Sorry for the double post)

I'll ask this of the whole group. Do you all think that somewhere in the range of 75% of all golf courses in America (and the world, or that matter) fall in the range of 2 to 4 on the Doak scale? I think it takes something really poor to be a 1 (zero's are just strange) and then something fairly well above average to be a 5, but the rest as just kind of in there. What do you think? 75+% of all golf courses wind up being a 2, 3, or 4?

[Matt_Ward]

John:

There's no way to know for sure but clearly there's not many "must play"courses from the overall total. So, yeah, 75% of the stuff that's out there is fairly basic type stuff -- likely no more than a Doak 3 which is fairly ordinary type design stuff.

Gents:

Tom's book clearly is a major advancement in understanding golf designs -- no doubt a more up-to-date book would reflect what has happened in the years since then. The Internet and all the info that's shared here does help provide a good bit more than was available from years ago.

[John Moore II]

Matt-Wouldn't you say that a Doak 4 is fairly ordinary as well? I'm looking at some stuff that I copied out of the CG for North Carolina when I looked at it last year and the courses that Tom rates a 4 that I have played (Pinehurst #5, Pinehurst #3, and Talamore), while not great or "must play" by any stretch, they are certainly above average. And I think there are enough of those around, above average, but not great. I think there are a lot of those around, really. And I really don't think there are a lot of true One's around. So, thats why I said what I did about most courses being in the 2-4 range.

How about this for a distribution
0-1: 11%
2-4: 75%
5-6: 11%
7: 2%
8: .8%
9: .19%
10: .01%

So thats probably a little too precise, but probably close enough to work with and have a decent idea of what is what, and how rare certain courses are. Agree? Yes, no?

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