[John Moore II]

Since I am sure at least a few people on the site have a copy of CG (one person has a copy for certain  ) would it be possible to post on here what courses in North Carolina fall into a certain category? I know #2 comes in as a 10, but where do other courses at the resort fall? Pine Needles? CCNC Dogwood? Perhaps even Tanglewood Park, Bryan Park and any of the other courses in the book around Raleigh, The Sandhills and the Wilmington areas. I'd just like to see a representative sample of what course might be considered a 1 or 2, whats a 3 and so forth.

I ask because Kalen asked today where I thought Moose Run might fall in the scale and it occured to me that I really didn't have any frame of reference for what courses I had played fell where.

Thanks for the help.

[hhuffines]

John,

There was a thread recently where the conditioning of #2 would cause a drop below a 10.  I hated to see that.  The others were as follow:  CCNC 6, Charlotte CC 7, Longleaf 4, Highlands CC 6, Linville 6, Old Town 7, Pine Needles 5, National 5, The Pit 5, Seven Lakes 4, Wade Hampton 7, Talamore 4 and Landfall Dye 6.

This was done in 1996 so with changes I would think several would have better numbers although CCNC probably is a 6 at best.

[John Moore II]

Pine Needles a 5? Say it ain't so? Most of these that I have played fall roughly in line. But Pine Needles stands out as a head scratcher. I fully expected Needles to come in as an 8 or so.

I do remember the thread saying Pinehurst #2 may no longer be a 10.

Wow, I'm still stunned by Needles getting a 5.

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't seen Pine Needles since its renovation a few years back -- but I can safely say there is no way they would have made it an 8 in my mind.  8's are courses like Somerset Hills, and Pine Needles does not have greens like that.  I'm sure it would be a 6 or a 7 now, and a 6 or 7 is a very good course -- witness the ratings for Charlotte CC or Highlands or Old Town.

[John Moore II]

I haven't seen Pine Needles since its renovation a few years back -- but I can safely say there is no way they would have made it an 8 in my mind.  8's are courses like Somerset Hills, and Pine Needles does not have greens like that.  I'm sure it would be a 6 or a 7 now, and a 6 or 7 is a very good course -- witness the ratings for Charlotte CC or Highlands or Old Town.

Fair enough. Like I said, I am still trying to grasp what means what. Perhaps I haven't played enough other courses to get past what Pine Needles is 'supposed' to be, at least in my mind from the first time I saw it and then the first time I played.

Tom-Is there a course in the Sandhills, or NC (or even SC or VA) (other than #2) that you would consider a 7, 8 or 9? (Preferrably a public course that I would be able to play somewhat easily) Thanks.

[Emil Weber]

Has there been a thread where the complete list is posted?

[John Moore II]

Has there been a thread where the complete list is posted?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36690.0/

That thread lists the courses that have bene rated a 10. I highly doubt the whole list has been published online, it would severely damage the value of the book, and I am not sure if Tom would allow it for copyright reasons.

[Sean_A]

According to how I look at courses and how that roughly translates to The Doak Scale, a high 7, but not quite 8 is about right for Old Town.  It could go as high as 8 with the much discussed bunker renovation.  Pine Needles is not close to Old Town's quality imo - so 5 is about right - 6 if one is feeling generous.  

The real question is where does one place Tobacco Road?  I think I would place it between Pine Needles and Old Town.  

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

The real question is where does one place Tobacco Road?  I think I would place it between Pine Needles and Old Town.  

Ciao

I would think that Tobacco Road is the absolute definition of a Doak 8:

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

[Sean_A]

The real question is where does one place Tobacco Road?  I think I would place it between Pine Needles and Old Town.  

Ciao

I would think that Tobacco Road is the absolute definition of a Doak 8:

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

Mike

That would be true if one accepts that The Road is a generally excellent layout.  I think it falls short of this and the routing problems have been discussed many times.  The Road is without a doubt a must see, but as much for its bold design which includes its faults and triumphs as for the handful of excellent holes.  I would be shocked if Doak gave The Road an 8 as I have never heard him say positive things about the course.  My guess is a 6, maybe a 7 (more or less what my rating of the course translates to) if he doesn't concentrate too hard on the wide n shallow greens.

Ciao

[Kenny Baer]

A 6 on the Doak scale is a very good golf course.  I think people are so easily confused when one rates using the Doak scale; so many people give courses an 8 or a 9 when to be rated that highly you are considering said course one of the best in the world.

5=  Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it.

6=A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you

[Kenny Baer]

I think Doak gives Pebble Beach and San Francisco Golf Club an 8 on his scale.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Charlotte CC gets a 7 in the CG.  It has just been renovated/remodled.  I did not play it before the redo but I played it in June.  It is a stunner.  It might sneak up a notch to 8.

[Garland Bayley]

I think Doak gives Pebble Beach and San Francisco Golf Club an 8 on his scale.

Don't have the book handy, but I thought Pebble was a 9 and Cypress a 10 on the Monterrey Pen.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

There was a thread recently where the conditioning of #2 would cause a drop below a 10.  ...

Is conditioning the right word? Wouldn't better terminology be maintenance practices, i.e., narrowing of fairways, be a better description.

[John Moore II]

I just can't buy Tobacco Road being rated higher than Pine Needles. I've played each course 5 times and I have never once walked away thinking The Road was better than Needles. If Needles is a 6, TR is no better than a 6, and likely a 5 for my money. I love to play the place, but there is, to me, just no way that The Road is a better overall course than Pine Needles.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I think Doak gives Pebble Beach and San Francisco Golf Club an 8 on his scale.

Don't have the book handy, but I thought Pebble was a 9 and Cypress a 10 on the Monterrey Pen.

SFGC - 9
Pebble - 9
Cypress - 10

[hhuffines]

I really respect Mike's opinion but I cant give the Road any more than a 5 plus or a six.  Too short and too many shots I wouldn't want to play on a regular basis.  If it were an 8 I wouldn't happily drive past it as often as I do.

On another note I would love to get updated Doak numbers for Pinehurst #1, #4, #8 and both tracks at Forest Creek.  Maybe some day...

[Mark Bourgeois]

FWIW, which isn't much, I think Pine Needles is a marginal 6 but a 6 nevertheless.  For comparison, I still like #2 as a 10. Tom D's the smart guy on these things, obviously, but as far as conditioning goes I get less dander up over the love grass / texture issue than the existence of rough not to mention FW widths and positioning.

Closer to the NC 6 mark, Grandfather is a 7 in my book and Quail Hollow probably an 8 -- now there's an architectural odd couple.  I really think I would enjoy playing QH's architecture every day. Fun greens, interesting tee shots, room for recovery and a not-too-taxing walk.


All IMHO and probably "wrong."

[John Moore II]

Well, I think your final sentence sums it up very well. These are all opinions. Even Mr. Doak gave his opinion in the book; it is what it is. Now, that being said, its a well educated opinion from a highly experienced person, but an opinion none-the-less. We all see things differently in courses, some like to see different features than others. Since Tom said above that he felt Needles may be a 6 or 7 after the Reno, I would tend to think its a 7 because I feel like its a better course than either CCNC or National in Pinehurst. But again, this is just my opinion.

[Mike Sweeney]

The Doak Scale was basically set up by Tom  originally for his friends that were golf junkies. Let's call them the Wardian Hit and Run Crowd (WARDS) for this post! They will more than likely only see a course once and want to be wowed.

I have only been to Pinehurst once and I chose to play Tobacco Road over #2 and others in the area. Not only was I not disappointed, it would be my first course on a trip back. Let's leave #2 off the conversation because that typically gets rated higher.

Is there another course in Pinehurst that I can't see anywhere else? I have played a bunch of Ross in New England, NY and New Jersey. Is Pine Needles or MidPines better than Aronimink or Plainfield or The Orchards or Winchester?

I have said a number of times here that for a one time play when in Atlantic City, you choose Galloway maybe then Atlantic City CC over Hidden Creek where I am a member. I think over the long term, Hidden Creek is the better members course, but for a one time play, Gallaway has much more drama and ACCC has history and views over Hidden Creek.

Tom will of course come on and say it was not set up for hit and runners. I doubt when he wrote it, he thought TCG would sell for $800 either! The Doak Scale is for hit and runners. Did anyone see Tom's recent list of courses played? That guy is a serious trophy hunter and he obviously favors the Old Dead Guy courses over the Living or Recently Deceased Guy courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Liove the last post ! Well thought out via your wonderful mind.

FYI -- I often return to any number of solid courses -- so the "hit'n run tag" doesn't apply 100%.

Like your take on Hidden Creek -- but I do believe Galloway National is the better overall course -- have played it a few times to see it's more than just eye-candy elements that standout while HC is more subtle. Galloway National is a wow layout in more senses than just the visual elements you believe lie at it's core and courses of similar caliber.

Mike, you poke fun at those who only see a course once and then suggest they need bells and whistles to light their fires about how good it is. That's not true for a range of people and I think the same for me. I've played a bunch of lowkey courses -- ones that won't get a top 100 rating or a top ten state rating but they have plenty of neat and first rate elements - some are more discerning and others are a bit more subdued but the qualities do come out.

Tom D in CG did highlight HIS tastes and I think his overall candor is what makes the book so well received. One doesn't have to agree all the time -- Tom say that won't likely happen nor should it -- but I do thing you take the point too far when you believe that all raters eat at the same table of mega layouts which include all the glaring elements of design to get them noticed. That's maybe true for some but not for all.

[Sean_A]

The Doak Scale was basically set up by Tom  originally for his friends that were golf junkies. Let's call them the Wardian Hit and Run Crowd (WARDS) for this post! They will more than likely only see a course once and want to be wowed.

I have only been to Pinehurst once and I chose to play Tobacco Road over #2 and others in the area. Not only was I not disappointed, it would be my first course on a trip back. Let's leave #2 off the conversation because that typically gets rated higher.

Is there another course in Pinehurst that I can't see anywhere else? I have played a bunch of Ross in New England, NY and New Jersey. Is Pine Needles or MidPines better than Aronimink or Plainfield or The Orchards or Winchester?

I have said a number of times here that for a one time play when in Atlantic City, you choose Galloway maybe then Atlantic City CC over Hidden Creek where I am a member. I think over the long term, Hidden Creek is the better members course, but for a one time play, Gallaway has much more drama and ACCC has history and views over Hidden Creek.

Tom will of course come on and say it was not set up for hit and runners. I doubt when he wrote it, he thought TCG would sell for $800 either! The Doak Scale is for hit and runners. Did anyone see Tom's recent list of courses played? That guy is a serious trophy hunter and he obviously favors the Old Dead Guy courses over the Living or Recently Deceased Guy courses.

Mike

I think folks realize that the DS was designed for touristas.  Considering membership of a club is a totally different kettle of fish to visit here and there.  Even so, I don't necessarily buy your logic of where to go play.  A lot of things other than the archie come into play.  Regardless of relative designer merits for Galloway and ACCC, I would rather see Hidden Creek because I liked the look of the course in photos more than I did the other two.   

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

but I do thing you take the point too far when you believe that all raters eat at the same table of mega layouts which include all the glaring elements of design to get them noticed. That's maybe true for some but not for all.

Matt,

Golf Digest has Augusta National rated as the #1 course in America. Please defend.

Sean,

When you can find one person here that finds your views typical, I will pay for you next round at Hidden Creek!

[Chip Gaskins]

Holy cow, Pine Needles is no 5!  I realize Doak rated it this before the redo (even that is low in my mind) but after the redo it is simply fantastic.  The terrain is infinitely more interesting than #2 and the greens are the perfect mix of Ross.  The routing is varied and interesting.  When #2 greens get about 10-11 stemp they are really unplayable for most golfers.  The routing at (except #17) at Pine Needles blows #2 away.  Growing up in NC and playing these courses for years I continue to scratch my head about the love for #2, especially over a much better golf course down the road from it, Pine Needles. 

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