Why was Grace rated for so long over Old at SV ?

[Matt_Ward]

Just came back from today's play at Saucon Valley -- someone has to explain to me how the Grace Course (one of the longest yawns in golf in the USA) was rated among the top 100 for so long. The Old Course is indeed much better -- I'm not saying it's top 100 but it's far better and should have been noted before the Grace.

Comments ?

[Dan Herrmann]

Only comment I have is that I have to get my tail out there sometime soon.  Looked great on HDTV

[John_Conley]

I haven't seen them, but it may trace back to old Golf Digest days when length and difficulty mattered more than interest level.  In fact, the list started as the Top 200 Toughest or something.

Before I moved to Florida I dreamed of someday playing Grenelefe West, which was in the Golf Digest Top 100.  It hasn't been listed for a long time, plus I prefer the South when I'm down there.

Long yawns weren't punished in the old rankings.  In fact, some were revered.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - so true.  I remember when Grossinger's was rated as one of NY State's best back in the late 70's.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

The Old just underwent a rather extensive redo, and the Grace Course is something you need to play to understand it's not so much a yawn.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Beg your pardon -- but I have played Grace at least twice spread out over a period of ten years -- the second visit only confirmed the first. Are you really suggesting the Grace -- even now -- is among the top tier courses in all of Pennsy ?

If you want to see better Gordon work -- head to Stanwich or even I dare say -- in its rawest form -- a place like Buena Vista in Buena, NJ. I'm not equating the South-Jersey course to be a match for the brawnier Grace -- but the land the Grace has really uneventful and one needs a few no-doz pills to manage the time there.

Grace was one of those layouts that got rated and simply rolled over from one rating to the next. The Old is a better layout and with the wider variety of holes. No doubt the redo has helped. Given the bar for quality private layouts in the Keystone State I have to wonder if Saucon Valley gets high marks simply because of the impressive overall facility and the long time staying power of its creator Eugene Grace through the former Bethlehem Steel.

[Evan_Green]

Matt,

Have you played the Weyhill course? Thoughts?

Evan

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Calling the Grace a yawn is outrageous.  It may not be Merion, not quite the Old, but it is a wonderful challenge that requires some thought on every tee.  I would certainly rate it above Stanwich, which is simply a long hard course with almost every green sloping middle too front and middle to back. 

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

With all due respect, you're all wet if you think my comment was "outrageous."

You say it's ahead of Stanwich -- surely you jest.

Let me be clear -- I'm not suggesting either course would make my top 100 but for the Grace to be listed among the top 100 by Digest for a number of years proves to me that someone was emphasizing a dimension of the layout that boggles my mind considering the level of Pennsy private golf and what was not rated in the upper echelon.

Do you see the Grace beyond the likes of Rolling Green ? Or Manufacturers ? HV ? Lehigh ?

Robert, respect your opinions, but I've played my share of Gordon layouts and its on fairly nondescript property and the adjoining Old Course -- even prior to the redo -- is far better but gets little attention.

Evan:

Have played Weyhill and enjoyed it -- far better terrain and more interesting greens than Grace. Would not have it among my top tier Pennsy private courses but it offers a good bit more than many who might have guessed that the "name" Grace would be far better.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

When did I say it was among the top tier courses in PA? Never. I said it wasn't a yawn.

Considering how golf courses were both viewed and maintained when Grace was above Old - it comes as no surprise that it could have been, at one point, rated higher.

What do you think of the Eden Hole?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You missed my point almost as much as Lefty sometimes misses fairways !

When I said the word "yawn" I didn't find the level of the Grace Course to merit the previously high position it had for so many eyars through the Digest top 100 ratings.

For a course to be at THAT high a level -- it cannot be a yawn and frankly I don't find dead flat ground with similar type features repeated endlessly to be of a sort that merits such a position. The odd thing is that The Old Course was better even years ago in my mind -- still would not include that among the top 100 either. Saucon Valley is a fantastic facility and clearly the impetus provided by Eugene Grace during the heights of Bethlehem Steel should be noted. However, too many other Pennsy courses -- several of which I have named -- were never given such high stature and candidly I feel they are still beyond the likes of any of the layouts at Saucon Valley. Just mt two cents worth ...

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I think it's just when the ratings first came out in the sixties and seventies, length was in and the Grace was the best of Saucon by that limited perspective.  And, once GOLF DIGEST said so, all their panelists thought that's the way it should stay ... I'll bet you that half the panelists who went to Saucon in the 1980's never even played the other two courses.

Did the Old course pass the Grace before Tom Fazio worked on it?  That'll turn heads fast on the GOLF DIGEST panel.

[Kyle Harris]

The Grace Course is FLAT?

That's news to me...

Not sure what point I missed, you said I said the Grace Course was amongst the top tier courses in Pennsylvania. I did not say that, I said it wasn't a yawn. I then went on to say I could see why it was, at one point, rated over the Old Course.

For example, prior to some of the changes in the 1980s and 1990s, I can see why Huntingdon Valley would not have been rated so high. In fact, I believe Tom Doak only gave it a 6 in 1994(?). Today, it might be an 8 or maybe even a 9.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Please -- now we are going to discuss flatness. In regards to its overall terrain there's little signficant movement - especially when compared to the other layouts at SV.

Point blank -- do you think Grace is a top 100 USA Course from the courses you have played in your life? Do you see the Grace as a top ten within Pennsylvamia? If so -- please let me know how high you see it among such lofty company?

Kyle, since you admitted you missed my previous point -- I'll explain it one more time so you can follow along. Grace is a yawn for a top 100 layout in the USA. It is still a decent course but when you size up the qualities for a top 100 course -- at least in my book --Grace is just one example of length for the sake of length with little in terms of hole differentiation or green elements that make you want to come back for a repeat round. No doubt the same can be said for The Stanwich Club which Robert correctly stated is a long slog of a course with little architecturally to be compelling. How either received top 100 status still makes me shake my head.

The Grace is not in the same vein with the property and nature of the variety of holes found with the Old. If you can't see at minimum that clear distinction then rave about the Grace Course to your heart's content. If you remotely believe the Grace is better than a number of other Pennsy private courses I mentioned then you place an emphasis on items that are for me at best periphery elements at best.

Grace should never have been rated top 100 when other Pennsy standout layouts -- even at the time -- such as Rolling Green, Manufacturer's, HV, to name jsut three, were on the sidelines.

I agree w Tom Doak -- the accentuation of length likely prompted the speed track for Grace to be rated and those who supplied the numbers for Grace originally set into some sort of stone for those who visited later to believe that once rated then forever it should be rated.

Tom D:

I agree -- many times raters don't play the other courses at a given facility with several layouts. I found this to be the case with a number of such facilities -- Desert Mountain has that issue as well -- until recently, Bethpage Red suffered from the immense shadow of the Black Course.

I candidly never bought into the myth tied to the Grace being rated among the top 100. I played the other two courses and always felt they provided a good bit more but would not have rated them either that highly for such a coveted position.

SV benefits from being such a grand facility and for the manner by which Eugene Grace / Bethlehem Steel played such a pivotal role with its overall development.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Are you listening to me or just waiting to talk?

I NEVER said that I felt the Grace Course was a Top 100 Golf Course. I said, I could see why it WAS in the Top 100 back then AND rated over the Old Course in the 1970s.

When did I miss your previous point?

I agree, Grace isn't in the top tier, nor should it be, and it's not nearly as good as the Old.

All I said was, I could understand how other people could rate the golf course higher than the Old Course in the 1970s.

The Grace was still in its early teens, probably had more width, more room and more length than some of the older 40 years+ of neglect classic courses that hadn't gone the restoration route quite yet.

I'll take a place with which I am intimately familiar: Huntingdon Valley. During the 1970s, all the holes were still tree lined, the greens were probably 80% the size of the originals and the place was over-watered and narrow. It was also shorter than it was on opening day in 1927.

Take that in comparison to the newer, bigger and wider layout in the Grace Course and it's perfectly reasonable to see why (note: not perfectly reasonable!) Grace was ranked in the Top 100.

The answer to your original question is basically touched by Tom Doak: The Grace Course's style was the fad at the time.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I had a chance to play all three courses last summer.  I have to agree with Matt, though I may phrase my comments a little more gently.  I find the terrain at the Weyhill course to be the most interesting and varied.  I loved some of the par fours and threes.  I think they are the strength of the course.  The routing is exceptional.  The greens complexes, however, are not nearly as interesting as the Old Course.  I loved the bunkering and greens complexes at the Old.  You better have some imagination to score well on the Old.  I could play it every day and not tire of it I think.  At least I'd like to have a chance to do so.  As far as the Grace course is concerned, I was very disappointed.  I had heard so much about it that I expected it to be exceptional.  It is good but is nowhere near the top tier of courses in PA. 

Now Matt, let's talk about another of my favorite courses, Laurel Valley.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

The pot is calling the kettle black in regards to the idea of "listening" or "just wanting to talk?"

Grace should never have been rated in the first place -- that was my primary point --especially when better Pennsy courses like Rolling Green, HV, Manufacturer's were already there to start with. If muscular brawny courses were the prototype then -- my God, Digest had far better examples to push to the top of the list. And, if not in Pennsy then elsewhere.

Here's what you forgot to understand -- SV gets big time brownie points because of the immense facility and what they offer. Ditto the connection historically to Eugene Grace and ties to Bethlehem Steel.

I told you why the course was a yawn -- I've played a very good depth of Pennsy courses and the Grace would be lucky to sniff a top 25 position statewide. A yawn is a course that really lacks compelling architecture of the first order -- especially when a layout is consistently rated among the nation's premier layouts. Yawn to me means no real discernible differences in its overall presentation. Hence -- one will fall asleep when playing it. Got it now.

In regards to HV -- I played it during the presentation time you mentioned -- on HV's worst day it's miles beyond Grace at SV. Ditto the qualities of Old and Weyhill - even back then before any changes were moved ahead with them.

Thanks for your take ...


Tommy W:

Well put on all three at SV -- in regards to Laurel Valley -- I was really shocked to see how much love the layout gets from Digest raters and likely Golf Mag as well. Very long and predictable Dick Wilson layout -- if you want better work play NCR / South or the Meadowbrook on Long Island.

LV is overly watered and a slog of just beat driver and beat long club to the same type of green with massive flanking bunkers -- and on and on and on it goes. No doubt the club has benefited immensely from hosting a PGA Championship and Senior Open, to name just two major events.

I look at Laurel Valley and have gathered that well-connected people have clearly helped position the course nationally.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have played at Saucon Valley twice.  The first time all three courses on a weekend and the second time, the Grace and the Old.  The first time I was very impressed by the Grace and found that it required the most thinking on the tee.  The Old seemed pretty cool because of holes 3 and 18, but there were quite a few too many driver and wedge holes.
   On the second visit, I found that the Old had awesome greens that needed to be expanded out and that the fairways were probably incorrectly located with trees planted to straighten out some of the slight doglegs.  I think that it might be a truely great course. but probably on the lower half of the top 100.   
As for the Grace, it is very good, but probably should not rate any higher than in the third to fifth ten of PA's best courses.  It would probably be in the top 15 in metro-Chicago where there a tons of good courses but only a very limited number of great courses.  The greens on the Grace have quite a bit of movement and there are quite a few cool slopes.  And the bunkering is generally well located.