Does good design polarize the playing public?

[Dan Herrmann]

Do today's good golf course designs end up polarizing opinions of those that play said courses?  I'm not talking about GCA fans - I'm  talking about the average golfer.

I'm thinking it does.   Look at TPC Sawgrass - it was lambasted in its early years, but is appreciated today.    Strantz is polarizing.  Hanse can be polarzing.  Kidd can be polarizing.  Doak too.  As much as I love their work, there are folks that just don't seem to get "it".

To me, the universal (and deserved) love for Pacific Dunes is out of the ordinary.  It seems that controversy today can lead to later success.

[Anthony Gray]

  Dan...... this thread has Castle Course written all over it.

  Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan - great questions.  I think you're right; polarizing today may mean greatness later.  Apparently that's what Mackenzie strove for as he often wrote he wanted his courses to be polarizing.

Re Pacific Dunes, fear not, I have a few friends who hated it.  So there you go.

 

[Eric Smith]

Do today's good golf course designs end up polarizing opinions of those that play said courses?  I'm not talking about GCA fans - I'm  talking about the average golfer.

I'm thinking it does.   Look at TPC Sawgrass - it was lambasted in its early years, but is appreciated today.    Strantz is polarizing.  Hanse can be polarzing.  Kidd can be polarizing.  Doak too.  As much as I love their work, there are folks that just don't seem to get "it".

To me, the universal (and deserved) love for Pacific Dunes is out of the ordinary.  It seems that controversy today can lead to later success.

You have a different sample you're working with at PD because everyone must walk and I think that sort of weeds out many of those who may not like PD -- in my opinion.

[Eric Smith]

Let me add that I like polarizing and I think it can be a wonderful trait in golf course design.

[Tom Yost]

I'm not so sure there is much polarization.  

I would say that close to 100% of my average Joe golfer acquaintances as well as a vast majority of posters on the various (non-GCA related) golf forums that I spend time on, value conditioning over architecture.  When actual design is noticed, it is usually brought to attention because it is "ridiculous."  Things like bumps in the fairway, highly contoured greens, firm/fast  conditions, blind shots or anything of a remotely quirky nature.  

While I do think some folks start to "get it" once they are able to experience such elements, the majority are solidified in their beliefs about what constitutes a proper golf environment.



 

[Anthony Gray]

  Dan you mentioned Hanse. I was polorizez by Rustic Canyon. It was much better than I thought it would be. Driving on the road up to the course I thought "what can you build here?". WOW...polorized. I love the way he used mounding to obstruct views and isolate the holes.

  Anthony

[Dan Herrmann]

Anthony- good example.

I'm lucky enough to play a Hanse design every day and absolutely love it.  But I know some guests that walk off 18 and scratch their heads asking, "What WAS that?".  Fortunately, most ask to come back to play again.

[David Kelly]

I love the way he used mounding to obstruct views and isolate the holes.

Can you give examples because I don't know of anywhere he did that at RC.

[Dave Falkner]

Tom
I would go a step further and say that they often confuse the two.


I'm not so sure there is much polarization.  

I would say that close to 100% of my average Joe golfer acquaintances as well as a vast majority of posters on the various (non-GCA related) golf forums that I spend time on, value conditioning over architecture.  When actual design is noticed, it is usually brought to attention because it is "ridiculous."  Things like bumps in the fairway, highly contoured greens, firm/fast  conditions, blind shots or anything of a remotely quirky nature.  

While I do think some folks start to "get it" once they are able to experience such elements, the majority are solidified in their beliefs about what constitutes a proper golf environment.



 

[Anthony Gray]

I love the way he used mounding to obstruct views and isolate the holes.

Can you give examples because I don't know of anywhere he did that at RC.

  Sorry I was told Hanse designed the course.


   Anthony



 

[Michael Blake]

Dan,

I agree with Tom.

I don't think the 'average golfer' cares much about good design or design at all.  If they think the course is well-conditioned (very green) then it is a great course, if it is in poor condition then it is a bad course.  And that's what seems to be the polarizing effect.

Anthony,

Re-read David's question.  I think you misunderstood it.

[John Mayhugh]

I love the way he used mounding to obstruct views and isolate the holes.

Can you give examples because I don't know of anywhere he did that at RC.

Sorry I was told Hanse designed the course.

Anthony
 

Anthony,
I think what David meant was he didn't know of anywhere that the RC design team (Hanse, Shackelford, Wagner) used mounding to obstruct views and isolate holes. What spots on the course did you feel that they did this?

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

The average golfer is more concerned with other elements than the design itself.

Likely, you get interest in the condition of the course, what they have to pay to play, and whether or not there are sufficient goodies (drinks / food) to satisfy them at any point in time when there.

In regards to the "controversy" dimension you mentioned -- no doubt certain courses will grow on people -- the 17th at TPC / Sawgrass has become THE reason why any average Joe / Jane Sixpack is there to start with.

[Anthony Gray]

 

  David,

  On the first hole at Rustic Canyon the hazard disecting the first fairway is visable but but hard to distinguish. The third hole has all kinds of mounding in the exact middle if the faiway. The par 3 4th is a flat hole with no elivation ghange and you cannot even see the green because of the mounding. The same for the the par 3 6th. Who would have thought that swale was there. The 10th straight up the hill has a mounded waste area where you cannot even see the green. Sorry I misread your question. Have you ever played Rustic Canyon?

  Anthony

[John_Conley]

Let me add that I like polarizing and I think it can be a wonderful trait in golf course design.

Why, because everyone that doesn't like a course keeps it from being overcrowded for you?

[Phil Benedict]

In my personal experience the most polarizing designs are Yale and Tobacco Road.  Some people love them both while others hate them.  I was a bit mystified by Tobacco Road but love Yale.

I've heard plenty of people ask what the big deal is about TOC.  People I know who have played NGLA were lukewarm about the course, prefering Shinnecock by a wide margin.

I think the extent to which good design involves risk-taking or departures from the norm it has to be a little polarizing.

[Michael Dugger]

I don't think the majority of golfers bring a sporting attitude to the game.

It's such a mental grind, golf is.  What beginner, or expert alike for that matter, has not cursed, maybe tossed a club or just basically melted down in one sense or another.

Thus, due to the difficulty of the game, I think the majority of public golfers, like Matt Ward mentioned, focus on other things besides the golf course architecture.

They want a "fair" course, my oh my have we heard this word enough, right???

Of course any notion of fair is sorta horse bleep, in my opinion, if some feature of a golf hole treats you unkindly the proper thing to do is chalk that up in the memory bank and heed more caution next time around.

When golf courses get diffiicult and challenging is when some people play their best, but it's also when others begin to bellyache.

A great course like Pacific Dunes is great because it's a riddle a la St. Andrews.  Play to the proper spots and you can put up a good score.  But these spots aren't generally obvious.  It's not always right down the middle of the fairway.  Middle of every green, etc.....

And this befuddles average public golfer dude.....IMHO....and drives them to not like the experience.

[Jason Topp]

I would say no.  

Of the Golfweek top 10 US lists I think Augusta is the only classic course one could argue is polarizing.  

Of the modern list, Whistling Straits and Shadow Creek are the only two that could be considered polarizing.  I wouldn't even call Shadow Creek polarizing in the sense that I think the thread intends.


1.         Cypress Point Club  9.54
2.         Pine Valley Golf Club           9.50
3.         Shinnecock Hills Golf Club  9.22
4.         Merion Golf Club (East)      9.11
5.         Oakmont Country Club       9.01  
6.         National Golf Links of America      9.01
7.         Pebble Beach Golf Links     9.00
8.         Crystal Downs          8.90
9.         Augusta National Golf Club            8.87
10.      Prairie Dunes Country Club            8.65


1.         Sand Hills Golf Club     9.38
2.         Pacific Dunes  9.23
3.         Whistling Straits (Straits)       8.69
4.         Pete Dye Golf Club      8.30
5.         Bandon Dunes 8.28
6.         Friar’s Head    8.27
7.         Sebonack Golf Club     8.18
8.         Ballyneal         8.17
9.         The Golf Club   8.14
10.       Shadow Creek Golf Club          8.11

[David Kelly]

Have you ever played Rustic Canyon?

Well the day I played it with you would probably have been about the 300th time.

[Garland Bayley]

....
To me, the universal (and deserved) love for Pacific Dunes is out of the ordinary.  It seems that controversy today can lead to later success.

Not so universal. I overheard the pro at a local muni telling a golfer that the people who go to Bandon have to say they liked it, because to do otherwise would be admitting they were a fool to part with so much money to play it. He believed that his muni was every bit as good as the courses at Bandon. I have to admit, they all have 18 greens with 18 holes in them. His muni has ponds. Andy T will immediately tell you I think it is a goat track for that reason.

[Garland Bayley]

  Dan you mentioned Hanse. I was polorizez by Rustic Canyon. It was much better than I thought it would be. Driving on the road up to the course I thought "what can you build here?". WOW...polorized. I love the way he used mounding to obstruct views and isolate the holes.

  Anthony

The opinions of the author are not the same as those of the avatar.

[Anthony Gray]

Have you ever played Rustic Canyon?

Well the day I played it with you would probably have been about the 300th time.

  Sorry David too much sun exposure. Not good with last names. As a first time player I may have noticed things that you do not give a secound look. I was expecting a flat course but found that the topography of the land may be flat but the players visuals are not because of creative land forms. It was polarizing. You are lucky to have it in your area. And OT for this thread I was shocked at how linksy it played.

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

Let me add that I like polarizing and I think it can be a wonderful trait in golf course design.

Why, because everyone that doesn't like a course keeps it from being overcrowded for you?

Precisely.  Thanks for playing.

No - that is not the reason John.

In my experience the courses that I like the most are in many cases the ones my friends despise, dismissing them as too difficult and/or contrived.  They are not so much into the architecture as they are nice conditions.  And that is fine of course...we're all different.

For example:

The Ocean Course. I loved it, my two friends who played with me thought it much too difficult and vowed never to return.

Legends Moorland and Heathland.  Ditto.  Bunkers too deep.  Too much water.  Blind shots....

Kingsley Club:  Ditto.  My best friend thought it sucked, his quote.  He had a tough day losing his tee shots and 3 and 4 putting.  I had similar difficulties, but would give my left nut to live in TVC and be a member there.

Harbour Town: Just read my recent thread.  Too narrow.  Too many trees.  Outdated.  I for one could play there every day and never tire of its beauty and its challenges.

I like bold features a lot.  When I play Tobacco Road this fall with Ed G., most likely it will become a favorite - I doubt I'd ever go there with my friend.  Unless it was a big money match. 

So that's my reason(s).  Though I do like your inspired answer too John.

[Jim Colton]

I was thinking about this very topic when I was reading the 'Pac Dunes vs. OM in three years' debate.  Although I suspect OM will be widely beloved in this community, doesn't it have the potential to be the best example of polarizing that Eric is looking for?