New NGLA - Shinnecock neighbor ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

This article was recently printed in the Southampton Press.

http://www.southamptonpress.com

Eight months after announcing their intentions, the owners of Bayberry Land were at Southampton Town Hall on Tuesday to formally request a zone change that would allow them to build an organic private golf course on much of the 298-acre tract overlooking Peconic Bay.
Michael Pascucci—who made his fortune in the car leasing business and owns Channel 55 television in Melville–and his family paid $45 million for the property last year. He said he is eager to press forward with the plan to invest millions more to build the third showcase golf course—one that he says will be the first completely organic golf course in the nation—in Shinnecock Hills. The Bayberry Land property is just west of the National Golf Links and a stone’s throw north of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.

Mr. Pascucci said the triangular-shaped property offers a perfect canvas for creating a world-class course with magnificent appeal. “It would be like not building Pebble Beach when you have the opportunity to build Pebble Beach,” Mr. Pascucci said, referring to the famous oceanside course in California.

But to do so, the family, which owns the property under the name Sebonac Neck Holdings LLC, must convince the Town Board to create a multi-use planned development district to replace the underlying three-acre residential zoning on the property.

That would allow for the redevelopment of the pre-existing, nonconforming summer camp and convalescent center at the site, formerly owned by Local 3, a Flushing-based chapter of the Pension Fund of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. The Pascuccis envision a private 18-hole golf course with up to 15 four-bedroom guest cottages, a clubhouse, and other improvements.

The zone change also would allow a marine science research center to be built on a 54-acre portion of the property that is mostly wetlands bordering Cold Spring Harbor. The family has agreed to donate the land to Southampton College for use as part of its marine science program.

[Jeff_Lewis]

These guys certainly appear to be going about this the proper way, but the scuttlebutt out east is that this is unlikely to happen and will take 8-10 years even if it does.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Isn't this the Nicklaus course that has been mentioned several times in the past here?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Scott,

I think you are referring to Ferry Point Park in The Bronx which is a Nicklaus course under construction that is owned by NYC. My guess is that it is way too early to announce an architect here, probably after Southampton Town approval which will take time.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Nicklaus   If there is ever a site that cries out for Tom Doak, this is  it.

[David Graves]

Would someone please define "organic" as regards a golf course?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Organic Golf

In the case of the East End of Long Island, I think it is probably a term that was produced by a lawyer or environmental consultant who has experience in the politics of East End (NY) golf course development. At The Bridge Golf Club in Bridgehampton, the owner went through years of debates and Southampton Town politics before he was able to break ground, and his property is in the middle of the woods (beautiful views however of Peconic Bay). At Friar's Head, they are going through the same process, and that is in the Town of Riverhead which is much easier to deal with.

Here you have a piece of property that is right on the water, which means wetlands. Thus the developer will have to show the Town and the environmentalist of the East End that a golf course will have very little effect to the surrounding area and water. Thus, I am guessing, it will have no chemicals, and little land movement when they are building.

PS. Southampton Golf Club, a Seth Raynor course, is nearby, and many of the local politicians and attorneys are members at Southampton.

The Group for the South Fork is a very strong local environmental group. They do many great things for the community, and I support them 98% of the time. The other 2% relates to golf course issues   http://www.hamptons.com/gsf/groupaction.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

It would seem like a neat piece of property, but one never knows what the final buildable land will look like, and when it will be available for building.

It is an expensive proposition for prospective founding members and members.

My imagination is limited, and I just can't picture a Nicklaus golf course side by side with NGLA and SH, but perhaps these neighbors will demand that a unique and special product be built, that can stand the comparison.

[melville]

This course will be spectacular. It is the single most spectacular piece of property in the United States.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Li Golf,

What makes it more spectacular than NGLA, The Creek, Inwood, and Maidstone.

[melville]

Surrounded on two sides by water, and the third by NGLA. Nearly one mile of beach. Beautifully undulating land. Great sunsets. Great soil. Spectacular entrance. Not to malign the other courses, but compare the raw pieces of land and see which one you would pick if none of them were developed.

[RJ_Daley]

Didn't Widows Walk start out to be an "organic" golf course.  What golf course management models can call themselves organic in the sense of totally chemical free?  By the way where do you draw the line defining organic fertilizer, pest suppression and cultural practices VS conventional IPM principles that acknowledge focused use of pesticides and fert under an intensive program of scouting and soil/turf monitoring and evaluations?  

After some previous discussions here on GCA about the labyrinth of environmental gamesmanship being played upon the  Friar's Head effort (even after it is substantially finished) I don't know what process could be more depressing, no matter how big the dream is of this latest developer.  

[melville]

I think we may be entering a new era. There are some courses that from a practical standpoint are performing organically and the results are super.

It's sad, but it seems that you just can't do enough to get a project approved.

This one seems to be doing all the right things so far.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm not trying to Badger you Li, however I just would like to know which and where are said courses.  What does a practical standpoint signify in terms of an organic program VS conventional wisdom with IPM goals?  Can a so called practically standpointed organic program deliver a golf course I assume somebody would be asked to pay in the area of 250K to join?  

Has the fert and IPM programs at Shinny and NGLA, the Creek and all the others demonstrably deminished the purity of the environment out there to any degree greater than the course of other human existence on the Island?  Take out the golf courses from the islands acreage and just tell me about the estate lawns and Joe Everybodies home lawns.  Tell me what really has impact.  Another 40 acres under turf maintanence isn't going to dent the overall impact on the big picture to any real world degree beyond everyday life out there.  My humble opinion, I could be wrong...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Li Golf,

If you think it's the best site of all,
Why did CBM choose the NGLA site over the Bayberry site ?

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I have the same question.  I'm wondering if there is any record of CB Mac looking at this property.

Does anyone know?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I had heard that a fairly thorough search was conducted before settling on the NGLA property, but perhaps others more skilled at research could provide an in depth answer.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

That was my understanding as well.  So, I'm curious if this Bayberry land really is "better" than the NGLA property, why didn't CB Mac develop his course there?

I've got a friend who lives within walking distance of the property.  Perhaps I need to pay a visit.

[melville]

The property was owned by a number of different landowners. It was not available to CB Mac. Charles Sabin (an orig. member of NGLA) pieced the property together over a number of years and made it into his estate.

Seriously, take a look at the overheads. It's not even close. I know that sounds crazy, but look at it.

[George Bahto]

CB tried to buy Shinne but was turned down.

The Sabin property was not for sale at that time although he bought a few acres from Sabin as the building of National progressed.  The old proshop and a few other building actually were moved from the Sabin property I believe,

The present property (NGLA) was pretty bad until he drained it during the construction.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If JacK Nicklaus gives some thought to where he is building then he should hire George Bahto as his consultant on this project. Fifty years from now our great-granchildren could be on this site arguing whether Jack or George built it.  

[melville]

CB tried to buy Shinne but was turned down.

The Sabin property was not for sale at that time although he bought a few acres from Sabin as the building of National progressed.  The old proshop and a few other building actually were moved from the Sabin property I believe,

The present property (NGLA) was pretty bad until he drained it during the construction.

I would guess that NGLA wouldn't be half the course it is right now if the project were starting today. The draining of areas is a big part of it. They would not be left with a lot of real estate to build on with current wetland limits.

[guest]

This course will be spectacular. It is the single most spectacular piece of property in the United States.

Spectacular?  Because the property is spectacular?  JN and crew at hand?

Nah.  

Scenic?  Photogenic?   Sure, architecturally interesting, not in our lifetimes or the next.

[G_Tiska]

It doesn't matter how wonderful the site is. It matters what restrictions [and there will be] will be placed on the developers by the Town of Southampton. It won't be easy!!
My question is a total organic golf course on the East End? will it work.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I found this just flipping through some old threads.  Interesting discussion.  Talk of architects, site, and its potential seemed to be right on target.  Sebonack is a worthy neighbor.