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Will MacEwen

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2009, 08:06:00 PM »
Ian - bonus point for listing Royal Ottawa as being in Quebec.

Would Ottawa Hunt (Park) merit consideration?

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2009, 09:13:22 PM »
Ian - bonus point for listing Royal Ottawa as being in Quebec.

Would Ottawa Hunt (Park) merit consideration?


added...

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2009, 10:30:42 PM »
Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia


Digby Pines - Thompson
Brightwood?

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross

Quebec

Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr
Royal Montreal (Dixie course) – Park - NLE
Islesmere - Park
Laval-sur-le-lac - Park
Beaconsfield - Park
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson
Manior Richleau – Strong - NLE

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui - Thompson
Toronto GC - Colt
Hamilton GC  - Colt
St Georges - Thompson
Shoreacres – Thompson - NLE
Scarboro GC - Tillinghast
Weston - Willie Park Jr
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview - Strong
Rosedale - Ross
Thornhill - Thompson
Summit - Thompson
Mississauga - Barret & Ross
Oakdale – Thompson
York Downs – Alison - NLE
Brantford – N. Thompson
Westmount - Thompson
Cherry Hill - Travis
Lookout Point - Travis
St. Thomas – Thompson
Essex - Ross

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair - Thompson
Calgary - Park
Jasper - Thompson
Banff Springs - Thompson

British Columbia

Victoria – Macan
Marine Drive – Macan
Royal Colwood – Macan
Jericho – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - Mccan



May I add the Riverside Golf and Country Club in New Brunswick a Donald Ross design to this list.
http://www.riversidecountryclub.ca/
It has been the home to numerous Canadian Championships including the Canadian Open of 1939 which was won by Harold "Jug" McSpaden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_%22Jug%22_McSpaden

And Brightwood in Nova Scotia I believe is credited to Donald Ross and Willie Park Jr.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 10:37:57 PM by Don Hyslop »
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2009, 10:40:07 PM »
Well just to defend my home club, I respectfully disagree
RCGC is a very strong course and definitely more difficult than Victoria but I found it a bit overtreed in spots and the "cage" of a driving range is a bit of an eyesore.  The Garry Oaks on the course are wonderful.  IMHO the bunkers could use a redo as they are a bit blah and after playing both RCGC and VGC in the same week two years ago I have a much easier time recalling holes on VGC.

Victoria is very quirky and much shorter with some holes that are rather dangerous such as 3 and 4 which almost share a fairway.  But the stretch of holes on the ocean, I think it is 7-10 are spectacular, and very memorable.  Wasn't the 7th at VGC originally a par 3 as well leading to a very rare stretch of back to back to back par 3s?  The green on #3 at VGC is also very unique.  IMHO Victoria GC is Canada's version of Cruden Bay, quirky and lots of fun.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »
Tom and David,

Attribution for the 1909-10 renovation - it actually appears to have been a near complete rebuild, with changes in routing - is a confusing matter.  There was an initial plan done by Jack Moffat, the Professional, in 1907.  Then in 1908 Harvey Coombe, champion golfer and Club Secretary, seems to have presented a plan.  The 1909 AGM passed a motion for a Course Committee to examine the plans and come forward with revised plans.  The work was begun in 1910.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2009, 07:06:08 AM »
Weren't there more architects involved in some of these courses? For example Scarboro, wasn't that a redesign? I believe Strong redesigned some of the courses in Quebec. I know Alison redesigned Hamilton. This may be asking too much but what about the approximate dates.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2009, 07:56:26 AM »
Even though it wasn't part of Canada in 1930, does Newfoundland have any good pre-1930 courses?

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2009, 08:12:58 AM »
Don,
I did not know about Riverside, is it still strong? It is within driving distance!

Tom M,
Alison visited Hamilton in 1920, four years after its opening and six years after Colt's visit.

I would agree that Montebello, Manoir, Lakeview and York Downs would be the forgotten group, I would love to have seen in their day.

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2009, 08:29:46 AM »
Don,
I did not know about Riverside, is it still strong? It is within driving distance!

Tom M,
Alison visited Hamilton in 1920, four years after its opening and six years after Colt's visit.

I would agree that Montebello, Manoir, Lakeview and York Downs would be the forgotten group, I would love to have seen in their day.


Riverside opened in 1897 and has hosted numerous Canadian Men's Amateur and Women's amateur Championships. It is just a few miles outside Saint John on the banks of the beautiful Kennebecasis River. It has a large clubhouse with several meeting rooms one of which is a beautiful one called the Donald Ross Room. One of the reasons it flies so often under the radar is that it is a very private exclusive club and one usually cannot play unless invited by a member.
 It is about 300 miles from where I live.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 08:50:21 AM by Don Hyslop »
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2009, 08:39:47 AM »
Tom,

Ive added some dates - there needs to be quite a few revisions.
The Thompson stuff is accurate -  but I haven't dug into the dates for Park


Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson - 1929
Brightwood – Ross - 1920

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr – Thompson - 1925
Royal Montreal (Dixie course) – Park - NLE
Islesmere – Park
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park - 1917
Beaconsfield – Park -1904
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson - 1929
Manior Richleau – Strong - NLE

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui – 1917 - Thompson - 1930
Toronto GC – Colt – 1912 – Alison - 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt – 1914 – Alison - 1920
St Georges – Thompson - 1929
Shoreacres – Thompson – 1922 - NLE
Scarboro GC – Tillinghast - 1912
Weston - Willie Park Jr - 1920
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview – Strong - 1920
Rosedale – Ross - 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson - 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming – 1912 – Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret & Ross – 1906 – Thompson - 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs – Alison – 1922 - NLE
Brantford – 1906 – remodel N. Thompson - 1920
Westmount – Thompson - 1931
Cherry Hill – Travis - 1922
Lookout Point – Travis - 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson - 1922
Essex – Ross - 1929

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson - 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair – Thompson - 1922
Calgary – Park - 1897
Jasper – Thompson – 1925 – (r)1927
Banff Springs – Thompson - 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – Macan - 1920
Marine Drive – Macan - 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan -1913
Jericho – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - Mccan

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2009, 09:08:24 AM »
Weren't there more architects involved in some of these courses? For example Scarboro, wasn't that a redesign? I believe Strong redesigned some of the courses in Quebec. I know Alison redesigned Hamilton. This may be asking too much but what about the approximate dates.
Scarboro was originally a George Cumming design in 1912 and then the club hired Tillinghast to do a redesign circa 1925.  The redesign was supposed to have been done by Willie Park Jr but he fell ill, returned to Scotland and died.  Cumming was the pro at Toronto and he was one of the first Canadians (albeit not native born) to design courses in Canada, at least in Ontario, in the first 10-20 years of the 20th century before we started to import designers from the UK and US and before Stanley Thompson was old enough to start his business.  Many courses in the Toronto area were originally Cumming designs, although many of those would be NLE.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2009, 09:54:23 AM »

Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia


Digby Pines - Thompson
Brightwood ?

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross
Riverside - ? 1897, Ross ?

Quebec

Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr
Royal Montreal - Dixie course (NLE) – Park
Islesmere - Park
Laval-sur-le-lac - Park
Beaconsfield - Park
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson 1929
Manior Richleau (NLE) – Strong

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui - Thompson
Toronto GC - Colt 1912
Hamilton GC  - Colt 1914, Alison 1920
St Georges - Thompson 1930
Shoreacres (NLE) – Thompson
Scarboro GC - Cumming 1912, Tillinghast 1925
Weston - Willie Park Jr
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview - Strong 1920
Rosedale - Ross
Thornhill - Thompson
Summit - Thompson
Mississauga - Barret & Ross
Oakdale – Thompson
York Downs (NLE) – Alison 1921
Brantford – N. Thompson
Westmount - Thompson
Cherry Hill - Travis
Lookout Point - Travis
St. Thomas – Thompson
Essex - Ross 1928

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair - Thompson
Calgary - Park
Jasper - Thompson 1925
Banff Springs - Thompson 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – ? 1910
Marine Drive – Macan
Royal Colwood – Macan
Jericho – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - Macan


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2009, 09:56:23 AM »
Tom,

Ive added some dates - there needs to be quite a few revisions.
The Thompson stuff is accurate -  but I haven't dug into the dates for Park


Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson - 1929
Brightwood – Ross - 1920

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr – Thompson - 1925
Royal Montreal (Dixie course) – Park - NLE
Islesmere – Park
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park - 1917
Beaconsfield – Park -1904
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson - 1929
Manior Richleau – Strong - NLE

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui – 1917 - Thompson - 1930
Toronto GC – Colt – 1912 – Alison - 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt – 1914 – Alison - 1920
St Georges – Thompson - 1929
Shoreacres – Thompson – 1922 - NLE
Scarboro GC – Tillinghast - 1912
Weston - Willie Park Jr - 1920
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview – Strong - 1920
Rosedale – Ross - 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson - 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming – 1912 – Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret & Ross – 1906 – Thompson - 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs – Alison – 1922 - NLE
Brantford – 1906 – remodel N. Thompson - 1920
Westmount – Thompson - 1931
Cherry Hill – Travis - 1922
Lookout Point – Travis - 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson - 1922
Essex – Ross - 1929

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson - 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair – Thompson - 1922
Calgary – Park - 1897
Jasper – Thompson – 1925 – (r)1927
Banff Springs – Thompson - 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – Macan - 1920
Marine Drive – Macan - 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan -1913
Jericho – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - Mccan


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2009, 10:05:51 AM »
Ian, sorry about that I didn't see your corrected list. I just made few changes and changed the format slightly to make it easier to add redesign names. Is Jericho still around? Willie Park at Calagary in 1897 seems pretty earlier, the same with Beaconsfield in 1904.

Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson 1929
Brightwood – Ross 1920

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross
Riverside - ? 1897, Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr ?, Thompson 1925
Royal Montreal-Dixie course (NLE) – Park
Islesmere – Park
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park 1917
Beaconsfield – Park 1904
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson 1929
Manior Richleau (NLE) – Strong

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui – 1917 - Thompson - 1930
Toronto GC – Colt 1912, Alison 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt 1914, Alison 1920
St Georges – Thompson 1929
Shoreacres (NLE) – Thompson 1922
Scarboro GC – Cumming 1912, Tillinghast 1925
Weston - Willie Park Jr 1920
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview – Strong 1920
Rosedale – Ross 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming 1912, Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret & Ross 1906, Thompson 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs (NLE) – Alison 1922
Brantford – ? 1906, remodel N. Thompson 1920
Westmount – Thompson 1931
Cherry Hill – Travis 1922
Lookout Point – Travis 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson 1922
Essex – Ross 1929

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair – Thompson 1922
Calgary – Park 1897
Jasper – Thompson 1925, Thompson 1927
Banff Springs – Thompson 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – ? 1910, Macan 1920
Marine Drive – Macan 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan 1913
Jericho (NLE) – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - ? 1911

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 11:02:20 AM by Tom MacWood »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2009, 10:22:15 AM »
Probably a very hard to answer question - but does anyone know what kind of golf course was there at Lakeview before Strong came in 1920. The website says the course has been at its current location since 1907, but makes no mention of a previous course or designer.

Peter

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2009, 10:58:04 AM »
Tom, as Ian wrote earlier, Jericho disappeared in 1942.

Shaughnessy Heights was not a Macan design, although I am sure he would have been consulted on changes.  It was built in 1911, before Macan was in Canada.  Macan did design the present Shaughnessy.

Hre is a link to the present club's history on their website - http://www.shaughnessy.org/index.cfm?ID=120
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2009, 04:17:25 PM »
Dale,

Interesting that the short club history posted at Shaughnessy's web site makes no mention of Macan, at all. Too bad. Well, I guess the club's erased enough of his original design now that there's no point in mentioning the course's original architect.

And, I’m pretty sure Macan did some redesign work at the old Shaughnessy Heights course prior to designing the new Shaughnessy.

Wayne,
 
Yes, #7 at VGC was originally a par-3; the original tee is intact, too, up and to the right of the current fairway. (You can still play the original hole, which is cool.) This made three par-3s in a row at VGC - out on "The Point" - back in the day.

How about the green at #7, too? Some of the coolest contour anywhere.

Ian,

You say Lakeview remains a good course. But it’s a mere shadow of the Strong course that hosted Canadian Opens, right? I haven’t been there in years.  

Tom MacWood,

I've driven past Peace Portal a few times, but haven’t yet stopped in to see it or play it. I've heard from a few people, including Richard Zokol, that it's quite good. Interesting, too, that part of the course is actually in the United States! How many courses can claim to play through two countries?!

During the early, pre-1910 era, at VGC, the course changed almost annually; Victoria golfers played different routings and different sequences of holes almost each year I recall. There’s little doubt Harvey Combe had a lot to do with any alterations made there about 1910.  

Macan renovated some holes at VGC on (at least) two occasions, during the 1930s and 50s. I know for sure that he redid the par-5 12th, which featured a green tilted from front to back that received a lot of criticism. Funny story: Reportedly, Macan fiercely defended the design of this green, which apparently lead one critique to give up, and say something like: We'll wait ‘til he dies, then redo it!

Macan died in 1964, but it wasn't until the 1980s that the 12th green was redone; the new green looks "1980s" as well, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:19:14 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Phil_the_Author

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2009, 04:55:24 PM »
Wayne & Ian,

The closest that I can nail Tilly's work at Scarboro down to is that it probably occurred between 1923 & 24. In the American Annual golf guide for 1922 it lists Scarboro as being 5,360 yards in length. In 1925 it lists it at 6,250 yards. I'm missing the other two years.

All - One of the great mysteries that a number of Tilly fans ahve been earching answers on for a number of years now is the Anglo-American Club that was located in Lac L'achigan some 60 miles north of Montreal. He wrote about the building of it in 1922 and yet we can find no mention of it anywhere. we know that it was built and open for play, but that is it! Some think, and I am in the agreement with this, that shortly after it opened for play that the club went under financially and was bought by a local hotel which then used it for its guests. This is a very popular vacation spot and was even more so back then.

Any help in learning more about it or possibly even locating it would be GREATLY appreciated, especially by one dedicated retired French-Canadian who spends two weeks every summer, and has done so for the past 8 years, walking the wooods and hills and driving the area in an effort to locate where it may have been. It is his personal 'Nessie!

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2009, 06:40:00 PM »

Jeff,

Peace Portal is almost in two countries but not quite. It is all in Canada. The second hole of the course is a par 4 which travels alongside the southern boundary of the course and if you hit a big banana up over the trees, there is a chance it could land in Washington State near "0" Avenue which runs along the border.

It is a fine course, good variety of holes and shots required, plenty of sidehill, uphill or downhill lies and although some of the holes are "cramped" by trees, the vast majority are actually very wide open. It could use some work on the bunkers.

Worth a game if you are in the area. I live about a mile from there so I could meet any of you if you were so inclined.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2009, 06:59:09 PM »
Damn! I HATE posting factually incorrect information! (Can't recall where I heard the course actually crosses into the USA.)

Thanks for the correction, Bob  :)
jeffmingay.com

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2009, 07:19:11 PM »

Jeff,

I recall hearing of a course which I think is along the Quebec border with Vermont, on native lands, that does go back and forth between the US and Canada. I may be wrong but I think that is the case.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2009, 08:02:57 PM »
Wasn't there a trend during Prohibition to have courses near the border with the clubhouse in Canada so that you can have a drink.  I also heard the same about St. Georges - the clubhouse is on the west side of Islington Ave and the entire coruse is on the east side.  The story that I have heard is that the east side was a "dry" area but the west side was not.

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2009, 08:06:31 PM »
I also heard the same about St. Georges - the clubhouse is on the west side of Islington Ave and the entire coruse is on the east side.  The story that I have heard is that the east side was a "dry" area but the west side was not.

That is true - but is not the reason for the location of the clubhouse.

It was placed on the main road to help sell real estate - the course was the first built for the car and not on a rail stop - but then again that ruins a great story - so let's stick to the other story.

Matthew MacKay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2009, 08:11:31 PM »
Aroostook Valley in New Brunswick has their pro shop and clubhouse in Maine, while the golf course sits on Canadian soil.

Riverside (NB) is worth a play, although very little Ross remains.

Jeff, I think Lakeview still has some elements of the Herbert Strong design...the short 17th is one of the coolest par 3's in Canada. Would love to see the course properly restored, although as a Mississauga muni I'm not holding my breath...

Montebello could be incredible...almost like a mini Highlands Links.

Will MacEwen

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2009, 08:18:53 PM »
Aroostook Valley in New Brunswick has their pro shop and clubhouse in Maine, while the golf course sits on Canadian soil.

Montebello could be incredible...almost like a mini Highlands Links.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8877792

Montebello seems underrated.  Canada is not blessed with many storied public tracks.

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