[Tom MacWood]

What were the best courses in Canada in 1930?

Is 1930 a good date or should it be later or earlier?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Quickly off the top of my head (sorry for the Toronto bias):

Toronto GC - Colt
Hamilton GC  - Colt
St Georges - Thompson
Jasper - Thompson
Banff Springs - Thompson
Victoria - Combe&Macan?
Royal Colwood - Macan
Scarboro GC (Full disclosure - I am a member) - Cumming & Tillinghast
Weston - Willie Park Jr
Rosedale - Ross
Mississauga - Barret & Ross
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr
Lookout Point - Travis
Laval sur le Lac - Willie Park Jr
Calgary - Willie Park Jr
Marine Drive - Macan
Oakdale - Thompson
Essex - Ross
Cataraqui - Thompson
St. Thomas - Thompson

[Tyler Kearns]

Royal Colwood, Jasper, Banff, Elmhurst, Toronto, Hamilton, St. George's.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I think the VERY BEST are quite easy to list: Colt's Toronto and Hamilton + three of Thompson's "Big Five", at Jasper, Banff and St. George's. Royal Colwood may be a candidate for the top tier as well.

I could be missing an "NLE" course or two, such as perhaps Alison's original York Downs, in Toronto. 

[Bill_McBride]

So Capilano and Highland Links were built during the Great Depression?  Interesting.......

[KBanks]

Tom,

I think Willie Park's Beaconsfield was hosting championships prior to 1930. Not sure if Thompson had remodelled it yet.

Ken

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think the VERY BEST are quite easy to list: Colt's Toronto and Hamilton + three of Thompson's "Big Five", at Jasper, Banff and St. George's. Royal Colwood may be a candidate for the top tier as well.

I somewhat disagree with you Jeff as I don't think Colwood is even the best course in the city - I far prefer Victoria GC.

[Wayne_Kozun]

So Capilano and Highland Links were built during the Great Depression?  Interesting.......

I believe that Highland Links was somewhat of a job creation project, Canada's answer to Bethpage.

[Tom MacWood]

Would Manoir Richelieu have made the grade. Who is Combe?

[Wayne_Kozun]

The credit for Victoria is given as Combe and Macan.  The club sits on its original site and was built in 1893 which, I believe, makes it the oldest course west of the Mississippi.

http://www.victoriagolf.com/Golf/HoleDescriptions/Hole13CombesCarry/tabid/107/Default.aspx

Named after the club's first repeat champion, Harvey Combe, this hole originally was played as a par-four with a blind tee shot over a ridge. Apparently Harvey's shots (using gutta-percha balls) were more likely than most to clear or 'carry' the hill. Now a deceptively simple-looking par-three featuring a deep green, this hole often punishes those taking it lightly. Members continually argue this is not the easiest or 18th handicap hole (as it is listed on the scorecard) – especially when the ball exits the shelter of the groves of trees and is buffeted by the strong cross winds.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, we discussed this one before, and I don't know many details, but Lakeview is listed as a Herbert Strong design that twice hosted the Canadian Open, the first time in 1923. From the website: "At its present location since 1907, Lakeview Golf Course has changed very little since Tommy Armour, Gene Sarazen, Walter Hagen, and other golfing greats challenged for Canada's national crown [note: I think that's in reference to the 1934 Open, not the one in 1923]. The beautiful Herbert Strong designed traditional, parkland style layout is 6, 340 yards in length with par of 71."   It really is an enjoyable course to play, a City of Mississauga municipal course. 
Peter

[Will MacEwen]

What about the original Royal Montreal and Shaughnessy tracks?

Nobody seems to know much about Jericho.

Was Montebello a big deal?  Thompson, opened in 1929.

[Dale Jackson]

What were the best courses in Canada in 1930?

Is 1930 a good date or should it be later or earlier?

Tom, I think to give a proper answer we would need to know what it is you are getting at.  Your suggestion of 1930 and that there may be a better date means you have something mind other than just a list of the best Canadian courses

I think the VERY BEST are quite easy to list: Colt's Toronto and Hamilton + three of Thompson's "Big Five", at Jasper, Banff and St. George's. Royal Colwood may be a candidate for the top tier as well.

I somewhat disagree with you Jeff as I don't think Colwood is even the best course in the city - I far prefer Victoria GC.

Well just to defend my home club, I respectfully disagree

[Tom MacWood]

I've seen one or two of Macan's advertisements and I don't recall him listing Victoria. Was that his home club?

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I think Willie Park's Beaconsfield was hosting championships prior to 1930. Not sure if Thompson had remodelled it yet.

Ken

He remodelled it in the late 40"s - the course was altered by 11 holes.

I bet it was still pretty good - it was done by Willie Park and the routing is strong on the south side of the highway.

[Bob Jenkins]

Okay, forgive my west coast bias.

Consider Peace Portal Golf Course. Completed in 1928, it is located at the US / Canada border. The architect credited with laying out the course (not sure about the actual design) is someone called Francis James. Never heard of him before. As you will see from the website, PPGC was founded by a Seattle businessman so James may have been from that area.

Peace Portal is a very enjoyable course. A new clubhouse was built about 20 years ago and holes were renumbered but I gather the course has changed very little. 6400+ yards, undulating terrain and public. It is still one of the best if not the best public courses around this part of the world.  www.peaceportalgolf.com

Also, my home course, Point Grey G&CC was founded in 1922 and has been one of the better private courses in Vancouver ever since. Although there have been changes in the layout over the years, no doubt that around 1930, it would have been considered one of the best and is currently in great shape. Hosted many tourneys including a Canadian Open in 1954 when it was last won by a Canadian. I think his name was Norm Fletcher.

Re the Royal Colwood vs. Victoria comments, having played both, there could be no doubt that Colwood is the better course and would have been considered such in 1930. Today, the bunkers need work and that is in the works but it is still a great track and as a design, it provides a much better test of golf. Great routing, fascinating greens, it is the subject of an excellent and recent "In My Opinion" piece by Dale Jackson. Victoria Club, on the other hand, is a heck of a lot of fun, has several holes edging along the rocky edge of the ocean and provides an incredible setting. It is NOT, by any means, of the quality of golf course that Royal Colwood would have been in 1930 or now. Victoria is built on very little land and has some great holes and is a great experience, just not the quality of golf course as Colwood. I also understand Macan was a long time member but he arrived in Victoria after Victoria was built. I understand he made some modifications to the course but the routing and original design is, I understand, credited to the "members" of the club in the early 1890s.

Regards,

Bob Jenkins

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

Manior Richleau and Lakeview were very well thought. Lakeview remains a great track and Manior a recent travesty.


Will,

The old Royal Montreal - (Dixie) was a great layout - so good Colt advised the club against moving to the site of Mount Bruno.

The old Shaughnessy Heights was also pretty strong holding major amateur championships.

Montebello should be the next name we think of after the Big Five – it was that good when opened - but its been tinkered with and let run down. The Seigniory Club was a major deal at the time and the property is excellent.



Jericho Golf & Country Club

The course featured a seven seaside holes looking out onto English Bay, and 11 holes cut through tree lined rolling terrain, all with dramatic views of Vancouver and Vancouver Island. The upper holes were described to have such drama that very few traps were required, and the seaside holes were rough and raw with open areas of hazard. The setting and mixture of holes made up what could be arguably the biggest loss in Canadian Golf.

It disappeared to become a naval base in 1942, likely because it was in an excellent location, and it offered the land required without expropriating houses.

Every BC course including the “new” Capilano Golf & Country Club were all compared to how they stacked up against Jericho. The architecture likely did not live up to Thompson, Alison or Park, but the setting was far better than almost any course in Canada.

The course would definitely make the top 25 list for Canada, and may have been even higher. The course would have looked and played like Capilano in the upper holes and had a similar feel to the Oceanside holes at Victoria Golf Club

[Andrew Cunningham]

What about the original Royal Montreal and Shaughnessy tracks?

Nobody seems to know much about Jericho.

Was Montebello a big deal?  Thompson, opened in 1929.

Not sure if Montebello was a big deal back then but it was the domain of the exclusive Seigniory Club until the 1980's I think.  And it remains one of the greatest hidden gems in all of golf.  I would highly recommend it as a great reason to vacation in the region and of course stay at the Fairmont Le Chateau Montebello.

[Will MacEwen]

Ian - thanks for the feedback.  I played Montebello some years ago, and it was a pretty nice piece of property.  I know the Seigniory Club was quite excusive (back when Montreal was the commercial centre of Canada) and I can imagine that the setting and the exclusivity made it quite a big deal.

I have played a fair bit of rugby down at Jericho.  You wouldn't know there used to be a golf course in the area.  My wife's grandfather was a member, but he is long deceased.  I think you put some info about it on your blog, but it really seems to be out of sight out of mind.

[Bob Jenkins]

Ian,

From what I have heard about Jericho, you are absolutely correct. The setting would have been unbelievable and right along the water in the harbour. Are you aware of any pics of it?  Maybe Mike Riste at the BC Golf Museum.

The old Shaughnessy would also qualify.

Bob

[Dale Jackson]

[/quote]

I've seen one or two of Macan's advertisements and I don't recall him listing Victoria. Was that his home club?

He was a member at Victoria from 1912 and was made a life member in 1935.  He designed and built Royal Colwood starting in 1913 and was made a life member of Royal Colwood in 1919.  He continued to be active at both clubs architecturally for many, many years.  He died in 1964.

Regarding the design of Victoria Golf Club, I have just consulted their 100 year history, written by Peter Corley-Smith, and the initial course was a very rough affair, bearing little resemblance to the course today.  Holes crossed over one another and two actually played across what was then called Mount Baker Avenue (now Beach Ave.).  He mentions Macan's involvement in some work done on the back nine in the 1950s but the course has undergone several revisions, the first appears to be in 1910 and then the 1920s and so on.  Although Corley-Smith does not credit Macan with much of this work, the club views itself largely as a Macan design and certainly some of the greens are very typical of him.

Regarding Harvey Coombe, he was much more than just a repeat Victoria Club champion, he won the BC Amateur championship 9 times, although some of those Victoria also served as the Victoria Club Championship. He is the first real championship caliber golfer from British Columbia.

[Ian Andrew]

Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia

Digby Pines - Thompson
Brightwood?

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross

Quebec

Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr
Royal Montreal (Dixie course) – Park - NLE
Islesmere - Park
Laval-sur-le-lac - Park
Beaconsfield - Park
Royal Quebec - Park
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson
Manior Richleau – Strong - NLE

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui - Thompson
Toronto GC - Colt
Hamilton GC  - Colt
St Georges - Thompson
Shoreacres – Thompson - NLE
Scarboro GC - Tillinghast
Weston - Willie Park Jr
Lambton – Barrett
Lakeview - Strong
Rosedale - Ross
Thornhill - Thompson
Summit - Thompson
Mississauga - Barret & Ross
Oakdale – Thompson
York Downs – Alison - NLE
Brantford – N. Thompson
Westmount - Thompson
Cherry Hill - Travis
Lookout Point - Travis
St. Thomas – Thompson
Essex - Ross

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson
Pine Ridge - Ross
St. Charles - Ross
Elmhurst - Ross

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear
Riverside - Kinnear

Alberta

Mayfair - Thompson
Calgary - Park
Jasper - Thompson
Banff Springs - Thompson

British Columbia

Victoria – Macan
Marine Drive – Macan
Royal Colwood – Macan
Jericho – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - Mccan

[Tom MacWood]

I've got say I've never heard of Peace Portal, it sounds interesting. Frank James was from Wales originally, migrated to Toronto, was a gardner there for a year or two and then some how found his way to Philadelphia, I think as a gardner. Eventually he became the greenkeeper at Lu Lu and I believe the early Aronimink. He then began working for Carters Seed, with their construction arm, and the evolved into golf architecture.

From what I understand there was a major redesign of Victoria in 1909 or 1910. Any idea who is responsible?

I forgot about Lakeview. Was CH Alison's course in Toronto any good?

[Ian Andrew]

Links to Jericho photos:

Earlier:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/230/2341/1600/Jericho.jpg


Later:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_QDoPVOqOUFg/R8dyiOMF1RI/AAAAAAAACAU/kq5O5z_68rQ/s1600-h/jericho1.jpg[/img]

http://bp2.blogger.com/_QDoPVOqOUFg/R8dyrOMF1SI/AAAAAAAACAc/RMQFd1nNQv4/s1600-h/jericho2.jpg

[DMoriarty]

Dale,

Does the club history list who did the revision at Victoria in 1910?

Thanks.

_____________________

Ian, 

Out of curiosity, about how many courses drop off the list if the date is pushed back to 1920?

__________________

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