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Anthony Gray

Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« on: July 07, 2009, 03:08:31 PM »


  Idea is from other current thread.

  Is it mandatory to understand gca?



  Tony Offtopic

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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 03:44:29 PM »
Is a better question not, "Are there architects that have not caddied for the average golfer at TOC?"
The follow on is, "What are you missing by not having that experience?"
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 04:02:45 PM »
I expect there must be. I have not been there for 31 years but I pretty much know every bump.
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A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 04:52:17 PM »
I know a GCA who has not even played Royal Melbourne... ;D
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 05:12:57 PM »
Quote from: Scott Warren on July 07, 2009, 04:52:17 PM
I know a GCA who has not even played Royal Melbourne... ;D
I have not either. You just cant play everything Scott.
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A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 05:20:25 PM »
You don't live in Aus...

I'm just funning after a few beers. No malice intended!
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Kyle Harris

Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2009, 09:49:21 PM »
I don't believe William Flynn ever visited the UK.
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2009, 10:07:29 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on July 07, 2009, 09:49:21 PM
I don't believe William Flynn ever visited the UK.

Of course, if GCA continues in its recent direction, I expect we'll soon be debating whether Flynn ever designed any golf courses in his lifetime.   ::)
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Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 03:45:29 AM »
Quote from: Scott Warren on July 07, 2009, 04:52:17 PM
I know a GCA who has not even played Royal Melbourne... ;D
I believe he has RM lined up this year around the Aussie Masters and the Old Course in travel plans for next year. I'm working on an angle to join him on the England/Scotland golf and beverage tour of 2010
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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 03:50:56 AM »
Good news, Matt. Hopefully you fellas hit London on your trip and I can join you for a hit, maybe at Deal?

Even an international grudge match, perhaps!
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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 07:56:14 AM »
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 07, 2009, 03:44:29 PM
Is a better question not, "Are there architects that have not caddied for the average golfer at TOC?"
The follow on is, "What are you missing by not having that experience?"


What are you missing ? £50 fee plus gratuity !
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Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 09:39:12 AM »
Is it correct that Ben Hogan never played TOC?

I find it hard to believe that a great player, or a golf course architect with any amount of respect for the game
could not make it to St. Andrews at some stage in their life. Certainly better to do so in their formative years IMHO...

MM
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 09:53:51 AM »
Quote from: Niall Carlton on July 08, 2009, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 07, 2009, 03:44:29 PM
Is a better question not, "Are there architects that have not caddied for the average golfer at TOC?"
The follow on is, "What are you missing by not having that experience?"


What are you missing ? £50 fee plus gratuity !

I suppose the expert on what someone is missing would be TD. If you are better than him, maybe you don't need to think about the question.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 10:24:12 AM »
Quote from: MCirba on July 07, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Quote from: Kyle Harris on July 07, 2009, 09:49:21 PM
I don't believe William Flynn ever visited the UK.

Of course, if GCA continues in its recent direction, I expect we'll soon be debating whether Flynn ever designed any golf courses in his lifetime.   ::)

Mr. Cirba's attempt to get this thread on the fast track to the numerous other Merion ones!!!!  ;D
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Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 10:58:35 AM »
I have played TOC and would not trade the experience for ANY golf course.  But I don't believe a GCA must have played every great golf course or someones "list" of great courses to be validated.  It gets back to the question of "groupthink" and what everyone wants others to think is great. 

Case in point, anyone on here ever played a golf course that was absolutely brilliant but never recognized by anyone as great?  I'm sure there have been several post to that effect.  The REAL sleepers.  You know, "The greatest course NO ONE has ever suggested was great?  I have (no I won't tell you which ones because it would ruin it).  But they certainly exist.

I do believe a competent golf course architect will have made a thorough study of the great courses and examined the architects that built them to be educated in their design tenets. 

Lester
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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2009, 12:11:37 PM »
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 08, 2009, 09:53:51 AM
Quote from: Niall Carlton on July 08, 2009, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 07, 2009, 03:44:29 PM
Is a better question not, "Are there architects that have not caddied for the average golfer at TOC?"
The follow on is, "What are you missing by not having that experience?"


What are you missing ? £50 fee plus gratuity !

I suppose the expert on what someone is missing would be TD. If you are better than him, maybe you don't need to think about the question.


Now, now Bayley, no need to get upset. Just a bit of banter.
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2009, 12:27:52 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on July 07, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Quote from: Kyle Harris on July 07, 2009, 09:49:21 PM
I don't believe William Flynn ever visited the UK.

Of course, if GCA continues in its recent direction, I expect we'll soon be debating whether Flynn ever designed any golf courses in his lifetime.   ::)

Mike, does it diminish Flynn's courses? Did he in fact not make it over there? If not, does it matter? He still looks like he did some truly great courses if he did or not. There are a few architects from the GA that didn't make it over there that still put out some pretty fine courses. Raynor for one, if memory serves. I know Billy Bell had done some traveling, but I'm not sure he ever made to the UK, as the template inspired holes I believe came from what he saw on the east coast. Information on his specific travels is a litttle sketchy and he was not a wealthy man. Did Perry Maxwell make it there?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Peter Pallotta

Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2009, 12:50:10 PM »
I think WHAT'S being looked at is not nearly as important as WHO'S doing the looking.

If I ever get to TOC, I can imagine experiencing a lot. But I can't imagine truly SEEING what I would need to see in order to apply the architectural principles there someplace else.

Peter

 
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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2009, 01:40:56 PM »
On a serious note I would be interested to hear exactly what architectural principles TOC shows and whether they are there by design or are more a quirk of the landscape.

Niall
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2009, 01:55:33 PM »
Quote from: Niall Carlton on July 08, 2009, 12:11:37 PM
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 08, 2009, 09:53:51 AM
Quote from: Niall Carlton on July 08, 2009, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: Bayley R. Garland on July 07, 2009, 03:44:29 PM
Is a better question not, "Are there architects that have not caddied for the average golfer at TOC?"
The follow on is, "What are you missing by not having that experience?"


What are you missing ? £50 fee plus gratuity !

I suppose the expert on what someone is missing would be TD. If you are better than him, maybe you don't need to think about the question.


Now, now Bayley, no need to get upset. Just a bit of banter.

 ??? In what way did my response make you think I was upset?  ???
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2009, 08:48:15 PM »
No worries Kelley. According to Sean, you do the best bunkering in the U. S. of A.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2009, 10:47:59 PM »
To answer the question..... I'm sure there are a multitude of those who have not....but what does that have to do with design anything?
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are There Architects That Have Not Played Or Viewed The Old Course?
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 08:57:42 AM »
Hogan never played the Old Course... he only flew over it in 1953.
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