Are there any truly great sharp dogleg holes?

[Gene Greco]

8th at Cypress Point

For this particular thread, maybe Stan wins the prize.

[Kalen Braley]

8th at Cypress Point

For this particular thread, maybe Stan wins the prize.

I'll 2nd that one, kudos to Stan for mentioning #8 as its nothing short of fantastic.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Fair enough.

10 at Alwoodley, anyone?

Hmmm.  Nope, about 45^o looking at the Google Map.  I wish I knew how to post those Google aerials.

I guess the point is, Ed is right, there are very few doglegs that sharp.  I agree with you that #10 Alwoodley (thought to be the model for #13 Augusta National) seems like a sharp dogleg.  It does play like one, really good hole.

[PCCraig]

Merion #15
Brookline #17

Ken

Is Brookline #17 considered "sharp?"

[Jamie Barber]

An unlikely one - but how about the 14th and 16th at Hounslow Heath in London? A scruffy municipal but 14/15/16 are three great holes.

14th is a full on 90 degree dog leg right. You really have no choice but to play as two irons. The 16th is a crook shaped dog leg left through trees to a green over a stream.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hounslow+heath+golf&sll=51.444165,-0.393963&sspn=0.026855,0.108833&ie=UTF8&ll=51.455063,-0.396699&spn=0.003356,0.013604&t=h&z=17

I guess "great" would be pushing it as a description, but proof you can find beauty in the unlikeliest of places

[Norbert P]

#4 @ Bandon Dunes sure is a nice intro to the oceanside.  An energizing moment at the turn with a challenging and beautiful shot(s) to come.

and Bandon Trails #14 is a great dogleg.         

[Anthony Gray]

 

  The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights

 


  Tony Offtopic

[Doug Wright]

Pine Valley #6 maybe?

[Ed Oden]

Sorry, I'm just now checking back in on this thread.  A few thoughts:

Sean makes a good point about the effect of trees.  But if trees are not the defining feature of the dogleg, then there has to be some other hazard or obstacle creating largely the same effect.  Without that, then there really isn't a dogleg is there?

I didn't intend the reference to "approaching 90 degrees" to be taken so literally.  Seems to me anything in the 75 degree range (perhaps even a bit less) would qualify.  My point was just that the dogleg needs to be severe.  I think it is that severity that makes this type of hole hard to design because it tends to exclude options off the tee rather than create them.  Show me a sharp dogleg that has multiple viable lines of play off the tee and I think you are well on your way to identifying the best ones.

Many of the nominations so far I think prove my point that these are tough holes to design well.  Sure they are sharp doglegs.  But are they "truly great" holes?  I'm not sure some of them are even among the best holes on their course.  Of those mentioned so far, I have played 6 (Grandfather #16, Baltimore Five Farms #6, Pine Needles #10, Bandon Dunes #4, Bandon Trails #14 and Whistling Straits #5).  I don't view either of the Bandon holes as sharp doglegs.  Of the others, the only one that I think potentially qualifies as great is Five Farms #6.  Even there, I'm not sure it is the best par 5 on the course, although that is more a testament to #14 than a detraction against #6.

Ed

[Scott_Burroughs]

Speaking of Five Farms, #12 is a pretty good hole, too.

[Chris DeNigris]

How about-

#8 at Wekopa Cholla

and a couple of Strantz favs-

#11 at Tobacco
#2 at R New Kent

[Kalen Braley]

 

  The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights

 


  Tony Offtopic

LOL!  Anthony, that is the single worst hole on the entire Blackwolf/Whistling complex....#72 out of 72... 

Dave,

I was thinking the same...that hole looks to be the largest blight on an otherwise darn good golf course.  That and the goofy 18th hole 

[KBanks]

Another is Seminole #16. It's brilliant.

To the extent your tee shot is wide and to the left of the dogleg, you're incrementally taxed with a longer approach, generally into the wind.

Ken

[Tony_Chapman]

The fourth at Tobacco Road???

[Bill_McBride]

The fourth at Tobacco Road???

#4 and #11 might both be more than 90^o -- great call Tony!

[Kalen Braley]

I just remembered one that should take 1st place.

ANGC #13....thats gotta be right up there.

[Anthony Gray]

 

  The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights

 


  Tony Offtopic

LOL!  Anthony, that is the single worst hole on the entire Blackwolf/Whistling complex....#72 out of 72... 

Dave,

I was thinking the same...that hole looks to be the largest blight on an otherwise darn good golf course.  That and the goofy 18th hole 

  This hole deserves a thread.

  Anthony

[Roger Wolfe]

#3 at Quail Hollow comes close.

[Tom Walsh]

the 12th at Southern Hills, not a 90 degree, but a great par 4

[Pete_Pittock]

Bandon Trails #14 is not a dogleg. It is the short hole from the ridgetop to the "      "green.  # 13 and #15 both dogleg, but I would not consider them sharp (+4 degrees).

[Karl Kocher]

17 at olympia fields south and 4 at hop meadow cc in simsbury CT, talk about obscure!!.

[Carl Rogers]

Is the 17th at TOC not sharp enough a dogleg?

[Kris Spence]

Ed,  #2 at Sedgefield CC is as good as it gets, par 4 dogleg right to a fairway  sloping away from the tee shot across three diagonal cross bunkers.  You played it yet?

[Jaeger Kovich]

2 Tillinghast holes come to mind...

Quaker Ridge #7, makes a big right hand turn. A above average drive down the middle goes through the fairway. Either play a fade, possibly with 3-wood, or take it over the trees and white stakes to about 120 yrds away.

Bethpage Black #12, turns dead left after the big cross bunker. I'm sure we are all familiar with it after the open, and its definitely a sharp dog-leg.

Also... What about Pebble Beach #18? Looks like a sharp dog-leg to me! The corner might be a bit more arching, but the hole turns about 90 degrees.

[Ed Oden]

Ed,  #2 at Sedgefield CC is as good as it gets, par 4 dogleg right to a fairway  sloping away from the tee shot across three diagonal cross bunkers.  You played it yet?

Kris, I am embarrassed to say that I haven't made it to Sedgefield yet.  But I'll be passing through Greensboro in about 10 days.  So with any luck, that will change soon.

I appreciate all the responses so far.  Especially those that describe what makes the hole great.  Not good, but GREAT!  What distinguishes the hole from other sharp doglegs that fail?  Does the hole succeed (at least in part) because of the sharp dogleg or in spite of it?

To me, the best example is the one I mentioned in my original post:  ANGC #13.  I'm not sure there are really multiple options from the tee.  Seems virtually everyone would like to play a big draw if possible.  But what seems to make it great is that the hole doesn't appear to lose anything in terms of strategic value, challenge, interest or fun no matter where your ball ends up after the tee shot.  Looks to me like you can make birdie or double from almost anywhere.

Ed