Devereux Emmet Thread

[Jay Flemma]

I thought I'd start a new thread since people are doing a good job of listing some of his courses that still have his work relatively untouched.  So I'll start...Garden City and Leatherstocking.

[Tim Gavrich]

CC of Farmington (CT), I think about 12-13 holes are pretty unchanged Emmet holes at least.

[John Foley]

I've tried to do some research on the lineage at Leatherstocking but have come up empty. I know there have been changes and Cupp's renovation has left a fantastic course, just trying to find out what happened between 1909-1920 is difficult and I've come up witrh nothing.

[Tom MacWood]

Garden City is not relatively untouched.

[Jay Flemma]

John:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=1143.  Also Bahto may chime on with some thoughts on whether emmet got ideas from raynor like I said in the piece and to what extent.

Tom:  Travis deepened the bunkers and added some interior contour to the greens, but its still an emmet routing and bunkering

[Tom MacWood]

The original course was a collaboration of Emmet and Hubbel.

The routing is the same, other than that Travis overhauled the entire golf course. He added close to 100 bunkers, took out Emment's cross bunkers and redid all the greens. It was completely different course when he was done.

That course was subsequently remodeled by Tillinghast, RTJ and Doak.

I find it humorous that you would call one the most famous redesigns in history a relatively untouched course.

[Adam Clayman]

As I live and breath. Welcome back Tom.

Didn't Travis and Emmet go back and forth trading turns at all those alterations?

[Tom MacWood]

You're right. I had forgotten about that. Emmet redesigned the course in the late 20s after Travis died. The 16th was his most significant re-change, if thats a word. Emmet is an under appreciated architect. My two favorites are St. George's and Huntington.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Huntington, Seawane, Eisenhower Red

[Sam Maryland]

How much of Emmet's original work remains on Lenox Hills (BPG)?  

[Jay Flemma]

The original course was a collaboration of Emmet and Hubbel.

The routing is the same, other than that Travis overhauled the entire golf course. He added close to 100 bunkers, took out Emment's cross bunkers and redid all the greens. It was completely different course when he was done.

That course was subsequently remodeled by Tillinghast, RTJ and Doak.

I find it humorous that you would call one the most famous redesigns in history a relatively untouched course.

what cross bunkers did he take out?  most are still there.

I don't think doak would call his work there a redesign at all...a restoration perhaps, but not a redesign.

In all the time I've spent at that course, not one member has mentioned hubbel.  wheres mucci and the members when we need them?  I think you over state your position.  The routing is the same, barring a few small changes to 16.  NO one told me he added 100 bunkers. I was told he deepened them.

There's not much emmet left at eisen. red. 

[Tom MacWood]

what cross bunkers did he take out?  most are still there.

I don't think doak would call his work there a redesign at all...a restoration perhaps, but not a redesign.

In all the time I've spent at that course, not one member has mentioned hubbel.  wheres mucci and the members when we need them?  I think you over state your position.  The routing is the same, barring a few small changes to 16.  NO one told me he added 100 bunkers. I was told he deepened them.
 

No, Doak does call what he did at the 5th a redesign (of an earlier redesign, by RTJ I believe). He did not restore the hole though I think he would have liked to.

Are you familiar with the famous 12th?

Who told you the bunkers were deepened?

[Jay Flemma]

what cross bunkers did he take out?  most are still there.

I don't think doak would call his work there a redesign at all...a restoration perhaps, but not a redesign.

In all the time I've spent at that course, not one member has mentioned hubbel.  wheres mucci and the members when we need them?  I think you over state your position.  The routing is the same, barring a few small changes to 16.  NO one told me he added 100 bunkers. I was told he deepened them.
 

No, Doak does call what he did at the 5th a redesign (of an earlier redesign, by RTJ I believe). He did not restore the hole though I think he would have liked to.

Are you familiar with the famous 12th?

Who told you the bunkers were deepened?

I was about to add twelve after you chimed in...yes, twelve been changed a few times.  But I also saw what tom wrote himself and he certainly does not claim he re-designed Garden City - not in the Conf Guide, not here on threads, and not in other pieces I've read that he wrote himself.

Everybody I've talked to at GCGC told me that Travis deepened the bunkers.  That's exactly what travis said in american golfer and did as well.

Guys, sometimes we take too broad a position in defining the word "designed."

[Tom MacWood]

I don't recall what the confidential guide says about GCGC. There have been several GCGC history books written over the years, I would recommend you pick up one. As you noted, Travis wrote several articles in American Golfer about the changes he was making. That is another very good source. If you're interested in what Doak did or didn't do you might shoot him a message.

Your entitled to your opinion regarding the use of the term design, but I'm not sure you are in the best postion.

[Jay Flemma]

With respect, I understand your position and noble goal of highlighting the roles of other players we consider to be more minor in the work process of building the course.  I dont take as broad a view, that's all.

On doak and GCGC, check your CG 31 flavors chapter.  I have other sources from Doak himself on that position that he doesn't think he re-designed GCGC as well.

The long and short is a great deal of emmet still exists there and its a great place to study him...so is leatherstocking,  eisenhower less so.

The question still is where can we play where we can see the most emmet still remaining?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jay,

Here's a list of Emmett courses. Have fun researching them all:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/devereux-emmet.html

[Robert Emmons]

Huntington CC and Wee Burn for me...RHE

[Phil_the_Author]

Jay,

Tom is correct in his mentioning that Tilly did a bit of redesign at Garden City and that this information, including the use of that specific word, can be found in its own book.

[John Foley]

Jay,

Link doesn't work for me.

What I am looking for are any details on what Emmett did in 1909 vs 1919 & what transpired since then. What we're the first 9 holes? Did Emmett do the work in 1919 also? It appears that the green site for the par 5 15th has moved to the right (appears to be an old green pad 20 yards left of the current green). WHo re-did the 3rd hole? Is 17 and the 18 tee box original. I know the 18th green was moved, when and by whom?

The painting in the clubhouse shows some things but it is from the 30's and not sure how accurate or how to interpret it.

Looking for more info.

[Chris_Blakely]

Jay,

First and foremost, we need to be careful on what we post about what we do and don't know!!!!!    Garden City is not an untouched Emmet as the on again off again Mr. Macwood has pointed out.    Emmet's original bunikering scheme was quite rudimentary (heavy on geometric cross / cop bunkering) and the bunkers that are in place now have been more than just deeped on the Emmet / Travis holes that are there.  Additinoally, the greens bear very little resemblance to the typical Emmet greens you will see on courses that I have listed below.

Also never in my research of Emmet or anything that I have read was Emmet inspired by Seth Raynor - especially from an individual that was a founding member of NGLA and helped CBM research the great courses of the British Isles that he used for his template holes!!!

The Emmet courses that have a good amount of Emmet left to be seen are:

Huntington CC
Wee Burn (bunkering redone recently by Fazio - have not seen it post redo)
McGregor Links GC
Leatherstocking GC
The Powleton Club
Belmont Hills CC
St. Mary's CC
St. Georges CC

For now that will suffice as a good list of Emmet courses with a lot to be seen.

Chris

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

Link doesn't work for me.

What I am looking for are any details on what Emmett did in 1909 vs 1919 & what transpired since then. What we're the first 9 holes? Did Emmett do the work in 1919 also? It appears that the green site for the par 5 15th has moved to the right (appears to be an old green pad 20 yards left of the current green). WHo re-did the 3rd hole? Is 17 and the 18 tee box original. I know the 18th green was moved, when and by whom?

The painting in the clubhouse shows some things but it is from the 30's and not sure how accurate or how to interpret it.

Looking for more info.

he did the front in 1909, a back nine in 1919.  The last few holes have definitely been redone 16 is ocmpletely new, as are 17 and 18 except the green.  I saw the old plans in the clubhouse from the original work.  I dont have a copy, but take a trip there and play it and talk to the head pro.  he knew a lot.  he'll know about the changes, but there is a remarkable amount left there.

I'll leave it to bahto to chime in about why there are so many footprints that look like seth raynor, and how another raynor he referenced in an earlier thread that Mike Mosely started did soem work too.  

There's a guy I miss.  I'll see him in Boston later this summer.  We'll play red tail together and go see the red sox.  he lives in an apot with a view of fenway.

john, the link seems to be working fine.  It'll tell you about the tight rein they kept Cupp on..."only restore...do not redesign.

[Tom MacWood]

John
One possible reason for the difficulty in tracking down Leatherstocking's history could be name changes over the years. If Cooperstown GC is the early name of Letherstocking, it was 18 holes prior to 1919. According to the 1916 Golf Guide Cooperstown GC was 18 holes. And if Cooperstown was originally Otsego GC, that nine dates back to the 1890s.

[Dave Falkner]

Also never in my research of Emmet or anything that I have read was Emmet inspired by Seth Raynor - especially from an individual that was a founding member of NGLA and helped CBM research the great courses of the British Isles that he used for his template holes!!!

Chris

Chris

I find that odd also  is it possible that it is the other way around? that Emmet inspiried Raynor?

[mark chalfant]

Jay:

Powelton !!    16 holes
Huntington

Rockaway  Hunting    Tilly did about 7 excellent holes, but the 10 holes by Emmet are very nice

[Phil_the_Author]

Chris,

You mentioned Huntington CC. Did you know that this was built on the Roy Rainey estate and is the location of one of Tilly's famous "Lilliputt Links"? It evidently didn't survive the building of the new course.

Also, at Wee Burn, on July 2nd 1936, Tilly designed "new holes" for 2, 10 & 11 and an unspecified location for a "new green around the lake." The club is now quite proud of their Tilly connection.