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Scott Macpherson

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Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« on: July 05, 2009, 04:16:02 AM »
To all those who visit Georgia,

I visited a new course during construction in Georgia last year and I have just found out that it is due to open this week (July 8th I think?). It is called 'Old Union'. I was very impressed with it and recommend it to all those who like strategic golf in beautiful surroundings.

Here is a link;

www.olduniongolf.com


scott

Mike_Young

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 07:31:21 AM »
I saw a few holes a few weeks back and it looked good..did not play it but was a nice piece of land.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 10:29:21 AM »
Quote from the website:

"The 7,667 yard masterpiece offers shot makers of all abilities the chance to play a golf course with a true Scottish feel. "

Sigh.   ::)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 10:47:44 AM »
Quote from the website:

"The 7,667 yard masterpiece offers shot makers of all abilities the chance to play a golf course with a true Scottish feel. "

Sigh.   ::)

Really.  The photos show a course that appears to sit pretty nicely on the land, looks interesting, and is not overdone. Too bad the BS can't be held in check.   
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 10:56:59 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 06:51:10 PM »
Quote from the website:

"The 7,667 yard masterpiece offers shot makers of all abilities the chance to play a golf course with a true Scottish feel. "

Sigh.   ::)

Really.  The photos show a course that appears to sit pretty nicely on the land, looks interesting, and is not overdone. Too bad the BS can't be held in check.   

I was just lamenting (1) the need to build a course that long for the 0.1% who need that length in competition, and (2) the idea that there was any Scottish feel visible in the photos of that nice looking course.  Golf course marketing is pretty much BS for sure.

Sam Maryland

Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 09:39:08 PM »
Does look nice.  Appears you can book a time on-line starting on the 12th but there is no pricing information anywhere on the website.  Is this strictly public?  Any idea what it's going to cost to play?  Do they allow walking?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 09:56:53 PM »
"At the center of the project stands Old Union, a golf course designed by world renowned architect Denis Griffiths. "

I know I live in California but who is this architect?  World renowned......

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 10:56:37 PM »
How do we know it's "great"?  It hasn't even opened.  It's "new" for certain.  It's "nice looking," for certain.

Whoever Denis Griffiths is, he has a nearly unreadable website.  Trying to appear to trendy and cool doesn't work in this website's case.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 06:45:15 AM »
"At the center of the project stands Old Union, a golf course designed by world renowned architect Denis Griffiths. "

I know I live in California but who is this architect?  World renowned......

Joel,

Mr Griffiths has been in the business for about 35 years. (see Denis Griffiths & Associates). He was in partnership for some years with Gary Player, (which included designing he Gary Player course at Sun City in South Africa), and Ron Kirby. Denis was the architect behind both course at St Andrews Bay in St Andrews (now called 'The Fairmont at St Andrews), and did all 3 courses at Chateau Elan in Georgia. He also designed a course at Diablo Grande in CA. He is a past President of the ASGCA and one of the few architects who builds golf courses as well as designs them. In fact, as I understand it, he designed, built and own Old Union! (you can throw a rug over the number of other architects who have done that) He is a modest man, and while his modesty may have meant his name is not a household brand, he may have better experience and a more enviable back-catalogue  than many others.

I believe this is a pay and play facility. I played (walking) nine holes during the grow-in and really enjoyed them.

Hope you get a chance to make in there.


scott

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 06:48:49 AM »
Denis Griffiths is actually a well-known GCA who has served, I believe, as past president of the ASGCA, and has been building good golf courses for over 30 years.  Most of his work has been in the SE, especially Georgia, with the courses at Chateau Elan probably being the best known.  He does excellent work, and is far, far from trying to be "trendy and cool", though he may simply have elected not to spend much money on a website.

The sniping, petty, dismissive attitudes and cheap shots that happen so often on this site now are why I rarely bother to post anymore.  It just gets discouraging.  Maybe you could try harder to find out about Mr. Griffiths instead of posting comments that presume that if YOU haven't heard of him, he must not be "world-famous."
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 07:17:28 AM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 11:54:41 AM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

Tom:

I have no idea who put the term "world renowned" on the website.  I think, however, that a GCA who has worked on four continents over three-plus decades, worked on over 100 courses, and been president of his professional association would begin to edge toward that status, wouldn't you?  Shouldn't he be at least "website renowned" on a site of people who profess to be students of GCA?  And if those "students" haven't heard of him, shouldn't they do better than to write dismissive posts before they at least use Google?

The answers to all of those questions are all too frequently "no" on this site, and it is unfortunate.

The fact the Mr. Griffiths is not well-known on THIS website speaks much more to the biases and knowledge base of the people that post here than it does to whether or not the term "world renowned" is appropriate. 

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Eric Smith

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2009, 12:01:25 PM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

Tom:

I have no idea who put the term "world renowned" on the website.  I think, however, that a GCA who has worked on four continents over three-plus decades, worked on over 100 courses, and been president of his professional association would begin to edge toward that status, wouldn't you?  Shouldn't he be at least "website renowned" on a site of people who profess to be students of GCA?  And if those "students" haven't heard of him, shouldn't they do better than to write dismissive posts before they at least use Google?

The answers to all of those questions are all too frequently "no" on this site, and it is unfortunate.

The fact the Mr. Griffiths is not well-known on THIS website speaks much more to the biases and knowledge base of the people that post here than it does to whether or not the term "world renowned" is appropriate.  



A.G. your post is dead solid perfect!  I think you have articulated precisely what anyone who does know of Mr. Griffiths and his golf courses would have liked to have said.  Thanks,
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:11:05 PM by Eric Smith »

Jason Walker

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 12:07:10 PM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

Tom:

I have no idea who put the term "world renowned" on the website.  I think, however, that a GCA who has worked on four continents over three-plus decades, worked on over 100 courses, and been president of his professional association would begin to edge toward that status, wouldn't you?  Shouldn't he be at least "website renowned" on a site of people who profess to be students of GCA?  And if those "students" haven't heard of him, shouldn't they do better than to write dismissive posts before they at least use Google?

The answers to all of those questions are all too frequently "no" on this site, and it is unfortunate.

The fact the Mr. Griffiths is not well-known on THIS website speaks much more to the biases and knowledge base of the people that post here than it does to whether or not the term "world renowned" is appropriate. 




AG-
Well said.  Sure seems to me that "world renowned" is more than appropriate.  I spent ten years in the north metro area and Denis Griffiths has a strong reputation there with Chestatee, The Georgia Club, St. Marlo, Chateau Elan...I'm sure there are others in the area.   And that's only one metro area in the US.  Are these courses that break the latest "top 100 anything" lists?  Most likely, no.  But they're well designed, fun to play, are able to be maintained, and are loved by their members.   They usually offer a natural look into the hilly/mountanous terrain, creative bunkering, and challenging greens.  And they're still flourishing at this point which is something to be said in ATL.  But to listen to some of the people on here, the guy is cutting fairways out of pastureland.


Mike_Young

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 12:44:39 PM »
I see where both sides here have a point to make....I think TD says if  ""labeling yourself as "world renowned" ""....I am sure the statement would have been written by a writer and if DG or any other architect had written it ...it would have not said such...BUT  it really doesn't matter....this website needs to realize there are a lot of us "world renown unknowns out there who design and build golf courses in regional areas and they will never be discussed nationally just like most restaurants and local bars.  Try em you might like them....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 01:09:27 PM »
Jason:

You are the one who is exaggerating considerably in your last post.  I went back and read through this entire topic and nobody said anything close to denigrating Mr. Griffiths' work or saying that he was "cutting fairways out of pastureland." [your quote]  Two guys said they never heard of him, and two criticized the web site.

AG:

As for my post, I assumed that if Mr. Griffiths designed, built and owns Old Union, he probably had something to do with what it says in his bio on the website.

And if you're asking me whether he is "world-renowned", and not whether he is highly experienced or highly skilled, I'd have to say I don't think so.  For example, I know he built the two courses at St. Andrews Bay, yet they are (were) named "The Torrance" and "The Devlin" after his two collaborators, and I doubt very many people in Scotland know who really designed them.  Maybe my standard for "world renowned" is a bit higher than yours, but I would not use the term to describe myself, nor most others in our lowly profession.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2009, 01:29:17 PM »
...Maybe my standard for "world renowned" is a bit higher than yours, but I would not use the term to describe myself, nor most others in our lowly profession.

Yeah Tom,

We all know you are no Barack Obama.
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Walker

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 01:41:02 PM »
Tom-
You are correct...
My apologies for the exaggeration--I was still reading through the "90% junk" thread.  :)

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2009, 01:41:55 PM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

I think, however, that a GCA who has worked on four continents over three-plus decades, worked on over 100 courses, and been president of his professional association would begin to edge toward that status, wouldn't you? 

No I don't.  

The fact that he has worked all over the world doesn't mean his courses are world renowned.

Has he ever designed a course that is top 100 in the world - NO
Is he being retained by any Top 100 world golf courses as a consultant - NO
Has he ever designed a course that is top 100 in the US - NO

I'm sure he is a very nice guy and I have no problem with him.  I will give him credit if he puts up his own money to build a golf course and wish him well.

I had the same problem with another ASGCA past president who wears that as a badge of honor to get jobs.  The guy has spent 30 years in the business and never built anything of note yet he gets jobs because of being a past president.  I have written to 1 former presidnet and asked another who is on the board to ask the society to not allow past presidents or presidents to represent themselves as a past president to gain an unfair advantage over their fellow architects.    

Norbert P

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2009, 02:04:04 PM »
   A fine bucolic setting for a new golf course to age into.

This hole looks intriguing and . . . subjectively discussible.

(Well, apparently their's an http lock on the picts.)    (Why?)

Never mind.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 02:12:49 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2009, 02:17:01 PM »
A.G.:

With no offense to Denis Griffiths, labeling yourself as "world renowned" can be counterproductive if there are a lot of people who don't know who you are.

I think, however, that a GCA who has worked on four continents over three-plus decades, worked on over 100 courses, and been president of his professional association would begin to edge toward that status, wouldn't you? 

No I don't.  

The fact that he has worked all over the world doesn't mean his courses are world renowned.

Has he ever designed a course that is top 100 in the world - NO
Is he being retained by any Top 100 world golf courses as a consultant - NO
Has he ever designed a course that is top 100 in the US - NO

I'm sure he is a very nice guy and I have no problem with him.  I will give him credit if he puts up his own money to build a golf course and wish him well.

I had the same problem with another ASGCA past president who wears that as a badge of honor to get jobs.  The guy has spent 30 years in the business and never built anything of note yet he gets jobs because of being a past president.  I have written to 1 former presidnet and asked another who is on the board to ask the society to not allow past presidents or presidents to represent themselves as a past president to gain an unfair advantage over their fellow architects.    

Joel,
What in the world are you talking about?  Denis Griffiths didn't bill himself as the past president; Scott McPherson and I included that fact in our posts to point out that maybe you and others might have reason to know of him, or that he had acheived some prominence in the profession in spite of you not being aware of him.  He couldn't be using it to promote himself too much, could he?  After all, you hadn't even heard of him!

"Badge of honor to get jobs?"  He OWNS the golf course, for crying out loud!

I've played 10 or so of Mr. Griffiths' courses.  I've enjoyed all of them, and have gone back to many.  Come on down to GA and we'll play some of his work and you can make an informed judgment about Denis Griffiths based on golf, not your knee jerk to a promo website from 3000 miles away.  Try to be fair to the guy.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Pitner

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2009, 03:08:17 PM »
I believe Mr. Griffiths designed Pole Creek and Fox Hollow in Colorado.  One par 5 hole at Pole Creek is silly and there a few questionable holes among the 27 at Fox Hollow, but they are generally enjoyable places to play. 

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 03:12:21 AM »



Hey Joel, are you GCA? If so, have you got any courses in the top 100's?

For the record, (And Tim this is for you too) Pole Creek won #1 Best New Course in 1985 and Fox Hollow #2 Best New Course in 1993 in the Public arena.

In doing this research I noticed that Griffiths notes that he 'often expressed the quality and interest of the course is far more important than the author'. That attitude make not help develop your brand, but it does improve the quality of the golf courses you design and build. And having courses COMPLETED in nine countries around the world +the US makes him well travelled if not world renown.

By the way, this thread is not about Mr Griffiths design pedigree, it is about a very well designed and attractive new course opening in the mountains of Georgia. With the current state of the economy there are not many good news stories, but this is one – especially when the GCA has built it and owns it. I think it is well worth playing, and am sure many others will agree.


scott

PS- Wishing others could do some research before offering unsubstantiated opinion when the facts are available....

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2009, 07:33:32 AM »
Since the reference to a "true Scottish feel" has been referenced negatively here, I'll add one more comment about our posters on GCA.

One of the predominant settlement groups in the SE U.S. during the colonial period were the Scotch-Irish.  They often settled in mountainous areas all up and down the Appalachian chain from PA to GA because the land was cheap and the terrain reminded them of home.  This included my ancestor John Crockett (after whom my son is named) who settled in a cove outside Wytheville, VA in the mid-1700's.  My parents still own 125 acres in that cove, and when visiting I often think that the land looks more like Scotland than Scotland does, having traveled in Scotland other than to a few golf courses.

People that post on GCA.com seem to believe that Scottish golf, indeed Scotland, is links land and links courses.  This is, of course, provincial, silly, and incorrect, and may have to do with flying into Scotland on a golf trip and seeing nothing but 4 or 5 of the most famous courses in the country, all on the coasts.  Google "Scottish Highlands" and look at the pictures.  The land looks EXACTLY like Blairsville, GA, and like most of the Appalachian region.  The same is largely true of the Borders region of Scotland as well, by the way.

I don't mean that every golf course in the world that uses the word "Scottish" actually is like Scotland in some way.  Golf advertising is no less prone to hype than any other type of advertising.  BUT a golf course in the Appalachian mountains might reasonably be able to claim to look like Scotland and actually be correct.  Look at the pictures for yourself.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 07:37:33 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Adam_Messix

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Re: Great new Golf course opening this week in Georgia
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 09:20:38 AM »
Denis Griffiths designed a course near there called Brasstown Valley that's a really nice resort course.  Interesting greens, nice use of the topography, nothing outstanding, but nothing goofy either, just one solid hole after another.  Old Union is about an hour from me.  I will ride over there and take a look in the next week or so and report. 


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