The sanctity of teeing grounds

[Chris Kane]

As for outsiders/visitors, the simple solution is if you love St Andrews and Scottish golf, move to St Andrews.

Melvyn, while I'm sure you're being facetious, you're also being misleading.  Eligibility for a Local's Yearly Ticket requires residence within St Andrews and British, Commonwealth or European citizenship.  Our American friends can't get one.

Americans could get playing rights by joining the R&A, which has playing rights attached; or joining the New or St Andrews Golf Clubs and getting one of the Yearly Tickets which attach to local clubs: when I asked about them in 2006, they had a twenty-year waiting list.

[Bill_McBride]

I read George Peper's book about living in St Andrews, and thought I recalled he had an annual Links ticket as a property owner in St Andrews.

I don't know what fees UK citizens who are not residents of St Andrews pay to play the Links courses.  Certainly not the same as we foreigners! 

[Chris Kane]

I read George Peper's book about living in St Andrews, and thought I recalled he had an annual Links ticket as a property owner in St Andrews.

He is an R&A member, which gives full playing rights.

I don't know what fees UK citizens who are not residents of St Andrews pay to play the Links courses.  Certainly not the same as we foreigners! 

UK citizens pay the same as everyone else.

[Bill_McBride]

I read George Peper's book about living in St Andrews, and thought I recalled he had an annual Links ticket as a property owner in St Andrews.

He is an R&A member, which gives full playing rights.

I don't know what fees UK citizens who are not residents of St Andrews pay to play the Links courses.  Certainly not the same as we foreigners! 

UK citizens pay the same as everyone else.

Chris, I guess that explains why so many non-St Andrews Scots don't play a lot on TOC!

[James Boon]

The main point that you need to realise is that in the UK, most members courses operate from the tees of the day and probably 80-90% of the play is suited to playing from these. As James pointed out, if you wanna play further back, ask. If it is a no it will be because either it's too busy that day or the tees are being protected. Tee markers get moved pretty much daily or on say a policy of every 150 rounds, but you will get quite a bit of wear even on par 4 tees, lots of UK clubs dont even have irrigation on tees and remember we have times of the year with zero or little growth. At my club we allow anyone to play anywhere except at the short holes but we have big tees.

Adrian,

I once played a course with its designer and he suggested we play off the back tees. On one hole he was still back at the green when I reached the back tee of the next hole, which was near to another hole. A guy on the other hole suddenly starts shouting across, going nuts that I'm playing off the back tees, then when the courses designer suddenly pops up beside me he was all apologetic and left us to it? So it seems that even if you get permission, you aren't always free to go about your round 

Cheers,

James

ps For what its worth on this threads second topic  of value for money at TOC, is the course not on public land? If so, its not suprising and surely only fair that the locals get such a preferential rate?

[Niall C]

This topic is about the sanctity of teeing grounds. Each course needs to balance the size of their teeing grounds with the demand for use from each tee. If you only have 15,000 rounds per year and 800m2 of teeing grounds on each hole, golfers can play from anywhere and there not be a problem – even if they take divots the size of dinner plates.

The example of gave of Mr Parry was not a lone example, as others in this thread have commented. May aim was not to be 'very unfair', in fact it was to be quite fair. That was the situation Mr Carlton. (And for the record, I can't recall if he paid, but I know that his brother and I did). Do you work for the Carnoustie Links?

Adrian, Carry Parry was very respectful of the course and any competition. The irony was that it was a Junior Boys Comp and they were not even using the back tees. And even if they were, in the summer, in a 6 week period, I think I could strip all those tees of grass and get them into almost perfect condition.

So back to the subject, IMO, many courses overly protect their tees. Let golfers go and play the course that gives them the most pleasure. That that means certain tees on certain holes need to be extended, go ahead and make them bigger. If people have fun, they will come back, and the game will grow. Simple.

Scott

No, I don't work for Carnoustie Links Trust or any similiar organisation. I have however been fortunate to play the championship course 5 or 6 times and the Burnside once. I have also been even more fortunate to have had a tour of the links with the head greenkeeper John Philps and have some appreciation for the job that he and his staff do. While I don't doubt you could strip all those tees and have them back into playing condition within six weeks, I'm not sure whether John Philps has the budget or resources to do it given he has three courses to look after.

Now I don't know whether the practice of restricting the teeing areas is for agronomy reasons, pace of play reasons or safety reasons, or indeed a combination of all three. The fact that there is a restriction should come as no great surprise as it has been standard practice in the UK for decades (although this is slowly changing as I said in my original post) and I would have thought to anyone with any experience of playing over here would now that. Therefore to pitch up and expect to be able to play where you like is either niaive or arrogant, especially if you or not paying for the round in the first place.

With regards to fairness, my comments were in relation to expecting the starter to make an exception to the rule just because of Craig Parry's playing ability. I stand by my comments.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

I would have to agree for the most part.
I have had many enjoyable rounds overseas from the yellow tees (and have been invited to play the whites and even the backs on several occasions)
If unescorted by a member, I tend to politely decline as I do not like to draw attention from members that might cause grief for the host pro or secretary.
I don't think the "back tees" should be available-and certainly no new ones built.

However, it would seem to me with many clubs operating under a business model of visitor revenue being a significant part of revenues, it would seem that visitors should be allowed to at least play from the same tees that members are playing on that particular day.(assuming they have the appropriate documented handicaps)
If this requires more tee rotation from the club to avoid wear (i.e. rotating portions of the yellow tees into play to preserve turf) so be it.

[Sean_A]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

I would have to agree for the most part.
I have had many enjoyable rounds overseas from the yellow tees (and have been invited to play the whites and even the backs on several occasions)
If unescorted by a member, I tend to politely decline as I do not like to draw attention from members that might cause grief for the host pro or secretary.
I don't think the "back tees" should be available-and certainly no new ones built.

However, it would seem to me with many clubs operating under a business model of visitor revenue being a significant part of revenues, it would seem that visitors should be allowed to at least play from the same tees that members are playing on that particular day.(assuming they have the appropriate documented handicaps)
If this requires more tee rotation from the club to avoid wear (i.e. rotating portions of the yellow tees into play to preserve turf) so be it.

Jeff

The vast majority of clubs have yellow/member/daily tees which the members use for daily play.  When a visitor comes, they are using the member tees.  Its the request to play on tees which the members aren't using that folks are on about.  Folks are talking about going back to the medal tees which for most clubs are only used for competitions.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

I would have to agree for the most part.
I have had many enjoyable rounds overseas from the yellow tees (and have been invited to play the whites and even the backs on several occasions)
If unescorted by a member, I tend to politely decline as I do not like to draw attention from members that might cause grief for the host pro or secretary.
I don't think the "back tees" should be available-and certainly no new ones built.

However, it would seem to me with many clubs operating under a business model of visitor revenue being a significant part of revenues, it would seem that visitors should be allowed to at least play from the same tees that members are playing on that particular day.(assuming they have the appropriate documented handicaps)
If this requires more tee rotation from the club to avoid wear (i.e. rotating portions of the yellow tees into play to preserve turf) so be it.

Jeff

The vast majority of clubs have yellow/member/daily tees which the members use for daily play.  When a visitor comes, they are using the member tees.  Its the request to play on tees which the members aren't using that folks are on about.  Folks are talking about going back to the medal tees which for most clubs are only used for competitions.

Ciao

Sean agreed 100%.
Guests should never have access to tees members don't.
A tee of the day is a great thing.
back tees should be closed in the US as well except on rare occasions (which would've saved me a bit of money yesterday against some flatbellied caddies)