[Michael Latham]

Is it a peculiarity confined to the British Isles that fee paying visitors to members courses should be directed to the 'tee of the day" irrespective of their ability and  pace of play? I appreciate that members courses seeking to attract daily visitors make for unholy bedfellows but why is the misrepresentation of the course one has paid to play, as opposed to the one actually played, so blatant?
Over the years I have heard so many reasons why the visitor cannot play from the back tee or a tee more representative of the men's card of the course in question, "it is too difficult", "that tee is reserved for members", you will be too slow from that tee".
Divots have no memory and the average grass lie is unconcerned whether it is disturbed by a golfer who paid a subscription or a daily fee. Similarly the repair of the same takes the same expenditure of time and money whether it be located at the front or the back of the teeing grounds. This particular rant has been a while in the brewing nurtured mainly by visits to most courses on the Open rota but it finally got expression following a recent visit to Ferndown, a pleasant heathland course in the south of England designed by Harold Hilton in 1912.
The usual polite request to play from the competition tees was rebuffed by the manager with the "members only' rule and we took to the tees of the day. Ten of these were located adjacent to the ladies tee markers and we spent a happy day trying to avoid the greenside bunkering with our tee shots, the intervening course between tee and green was of little interest and the round took over four hours as we could not drive until the green on a number of the straighter holes had cleared.
From a quick post round calculation we guessed that we played a course comfortably under 6000 yards against a men's card of 6500. Well I hear you say, that's what you get from those prissy English, and I would not disagree except is is also common practice at most courses in  GB and I many of which depend on visitor income for over 30% of their revenue. So the moral of the story is that you don't go back and you spread the word and maybe one day the Club will get to wonder why visitor numbers are declining. Let us try to expedite that day by sharing the names of the worst offenders. Top of my list apart from the above would be Carnoustie. I invite further contributions.
By the way in England the Licensing Authorities (alcohol license) view the payment of a green fee as membership of the Club for the day, you are a member! But then again in England at least there are members and "members". remember when planning a trip this way and making course reservations always ask the tee you will be playing, if you don't the course you visit will rarely be the same as the one you have spent so much time reading about.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The main reason is wear. In the UK a lot of clubs have farly small back tees that will only tolerate a small number of rounds. Clubs if they can are upgrading and resizing their back tees. The problem is nowhere near as bad as it was 20 years ago.

[ed_getka]

Michael,
    Did it ever occur to you to tee off with a club that will leave you with approach shots of the length you think are more fitting?

You are right that it is their way of doing things and I seriously doubt that play will decrease much because of it.

[JC Jones]

Michael,
    Did it ever occur to you to tee off with a club that will leave you with approach shots of the length you think are more fitting?

You are right that it is their way of doing things and I seriously doubt that play will decrease much because of it.

But Ed, what could be more un-american than hitting 5 iron off of a tee?

[ed_getka]

Michael,
    Did it ever occur to you to tee off with a club that will leave you with approach shots of the length you think are more fitting?

You are right that it is their way of doing things and I seriously doubt that play will decrease much because of it.

But Ed, what could be more un-american than hitting 5 iron off of a tee?

Hitting a 9-wood.

[Steve Salmen]

Michael,

At Sandwich, they said I could hit from wherever I cared, they couldn't care less.  This has been the extreme example I've experienced.  On the other end is Carnoustie.  What a disaster that place is.  The last two times I played, it was in the ballpark of 6100 yards.  I guess they give you the free yardage book so you can see a picture of all the fairway bunkers that will never come into play.

[Tim Gavrich]

This phenomenon was the only disappointment I had about my week there with my father last summer.  I had thought that the reason why people bring their handicap cards is to determine which tees they play from at different courses.  When my father and I played the Old Course, we both played from the 6100 yard yellow tees.  I showed my handicap card proving my index of 1.0 but nonetheless was forced to play from the yellows, rather than the 6600 yard white tees (it's not like I wanted to play the Open tees).  While I certainly had fun, the round felt like pitch-and-putt at times.  I shot the easiest 72 I've ever had.  I think I would have had more fun and would not have played any slower had I played from the white tees.

When visiting family in London the week after our Scotland trip, a friend of my aunt's took my dad and me to play Sunningdale Old, where I played from the back tees and had an absolutely fantastic time--even better than at the Old Course.

[Carl Nichols]

Are the courses in Ireland and/or Northern Ireland similar, or do (for example) RCD, Royal Portrush, or Portmarnock allow you to play from different tees (appropriate to your handicap, of course)?

[Scott Warren]

Well I hear you say, that's what you get from those prissy English, and I would not disagree except is is also common practice at most courses in  GB and I many of which depend on visitor income for over 30% of their revenue.

Never miss a chance to bash the English!

The same is true in Australia - social players are more often than not forced to play off specific tees, with other tees reserved for use during the midweek or weekend competitions.

If I were to get an invite to ANGC, could I play the Masters tees?

[Bill_McBride]

One thing that occasionally irritates me is when the yellow (visitor) tee on a hole is a 460 yard par 4 and the white (medal) is a 490 yard par 5!  Here I'm thinking specifically about #8 at North Berwick West but I know there are others that aren't coming to mind.  #9 Muirfield?

[Joel_Stewart]

If I were to get an invite to ANGC, could I play the Masters tees?

I think it depends on your host.  There are no members who play the tournament tees.  I had a friend who played there last year and is about a 4 handicap and the member insisted they play the member tees.

[Carl Johnson]

Is it a peculiarity confined to the British Isles that fee paying visitors to members courses should be directed to the 'tee of the day" irrespective of their ability and  pace of play? . . . Let us try to expedite that day by sharing the names of the worst offenders. Top of my list apart from the above would be Carnoustie. I invite further contributions.
 

When our group of eight visiting U.S. golfers (middle-aged and slightly older men, home handicaps in the 4 to 18 range) played Carnoustie on May 28, 2002, we were directed that play that day would be from the white (back) tees, measuring 6,941 on the card with an S.S.S. of 75.  The card also lists yellow at 6,692 and green at 6,405.  Frankly, although I had one of my better ball-striking days, the course was too long for me to enjoy it.  I would also add that rangers were seemingly everywhere, and that at one point we were asked to pick-up our pace of play.  Michael, is your complaint about Carnoustie that now "visitors" are always directed to the shorter tees, or that, as in our experience, they are simply directed to the tees for the day (back, middle or front), regardless of ability?

[Kenny Baer]

At ANGC you can play whatever tees you want. 

If the member you were with demanded you play the member tees then I guess it would be rude not to listen, if you are a good player then the member most likely would care less where you play from.

[Paul Nash]

One thing that occasionally irritates me is when the yellow (visitor) tee on a hole is a 460 yard par 4 and the white (medal) is a 490 yard par 5!  Here I'm thinking specifically about #8 at North Berwick West but I know there are others that aren't coming to mind.  #9 Muirfield?

Bill -  the 6th at Woodhall Spa is the same. A circa 450ish tough par 4 but only about 40 yeards longer from the back for a much easier par 5 - the same was true at Swinley on the 15th until recently when they scrapped the back tee and made it a permanent par 4. In both cases the pople who are on the forward tees are getting a tougher course to score on.

I think golfes should be allowed to play from where they want but given advice about where is best for their ability. The three courses in Berkshire that I am/ have been a member of all let you play from where you want when you want. They were all built in the last 10-15 years. I think things are gradually changing but many of the older clubs still make you play from the forward tees, and sometimes these can be moved further forward nearly off the womens, which happened to me a couple of years ago but I can't remember the course - it felt like a pitch and put.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You can probably play from where you want too if a club has big tees, some older courses have tiny tees. The club simply must protect them. In the UK a mens fourball all play from the same tees, thus a 1 handicapper playing with a 19 handicapper are likely to find it either too easy or too tough if the tees of the day are not quite great for them. I think its probably something that needs addressing and men from diff standards play off diff markers, but remember for some clubs building more back tees is just not in their budgets.

[Norbert P]

At ANGC you can play whatever tees you want. 

As long as it's somewhere else, . . . or I am someone else. 

[Jason McNamara]

One thing that occasionally irritates me is when the yellow (visitor) tee on a hole is a 460 yard par 4 and the white (medal) is a 490 yard par 5!  Here I'm thinking specifically about #8 at North Berwick West but I know there are others that aren't coming to mind.  #9 Muirfield?

Bill, you'll specifically want to avoid Downfield.  From the tips it's 6800 / par 73, from the yellows 6250 / 70.... though you can also play at a reasonable 6500 / 72.

I understand the need to look out for smaller teeing areas, but am not convinced that should require visiting pros and low single-digit amateurs to play at 6100 yards.

Nevertheless, I have a solution:  bring along a set of hickories.   

[Sean_A]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

[Carl Johnson]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US. . . .  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    
Ciao

Sean, I don't know where you live -- U.S., G.B. or elsewhere -- but as U.S. golfer who's visited Scotland three times, beginning in 2002, I could not agree more.  If visitors don't like the rules, they should stay home.

[Jason McNamara]

If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable enough approach, though a 4-ball of club pros wouldn't be slower at 6500 than they would at 6100.  Or giving the starter the discretion to tell a good group on a slow day, "you may move back a box for the rest of the round if you wish."

[Carl Nichols]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US. . . .  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    
Ciao

Sean, I don't know where you live -- U.S., G.B. or elsewhere -- but as U.S. golfer who's visited Scotland three times, beginning in 2002, I could not agree more.  If visitors don't like the rules, they should stay home.

Agreed -- I would certainly love to be able to play the harder-to-access U.S. courses from the short tees!

[Tim Gavrich]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.

I think that greens fees at the best GB&I courses are getting closer to those of the upscale US courses.  At the Old Course it ended up being about 175 quid for each my father and me, caddies included.  Hardly cheap for being relegated to the short tees.

I agree with you 100% about courses in the US not policing their back tees enough at times.  Our condo here at Pawleys looks out on the back tee on one of the holes and we see terrible swings from the back tee all the time.  Players should have to prove that they can handle the back tees in the U.S., and I personally think they should have the opportunity to do so across the pond as well.

[ed_getka]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

Exactly!

[Sean_A]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.

I think that greens fees at the best GB&I courses are getting closer to those of the upscale US courses.  At the Old Course it ended up being about 175 quid for each my father and me, caddies included.  Hardly cheap for being relegated to the short tees.

I agree with you 100% about courses in the US not policing their back tees enough at times.  Our condo here at Pawleys looks out on the back tee on one of the holes and we see terrible swings from the back tee all the time.  Players should have to prove that they can handle the back tees in the U.S., and I personally think they should have the opportunity to do so across the pond as well.

Tim

Man, you had to mention St Andrews.  I am on record as to believing that the Links Trust completely takes the piss.  This is a public facility that doesn't need to make a bomb to ease life for its members.  Unfortunately, the entire deal is more about making money than it is about giving the customer a thrill of a lifetime.  Perhaps things could be relaxed a bit there if the Trust didn't try and jam so many rounds in.  All it does is make for very SLOW games and often times disappointed customers.  I HATE the entire setup at St Andrews and would never return if the course wasn't so compelling.  For £125, the Links Trust should make the entire experience more enjoyable and the first step in doing that is to reduce the number of golfers on the course by stretching out the tee times.  To top it off, I don't mind playing in the winter when things are far less congested, but then for much of the season they want you to play off mats - what a travesty.  Its ironic that if they cut the number of golfers in the summer then winter mats likely wouldn't be needed or at least not to the same degree.  I have about as much respect for the Links Trust as I do Gordon Brown. 

Ciao

[Scott Macpherson]

Got to agree with the guys who have not enjoyed the Carnoustie set-up.

I love the course and am lucky enough to play it once a year off the competition tees, but a few years ago I played it with Craig Parry and his brother. (It was the year after Parry just missed out on the Open Championship play-off). Craig was keen to show his brother, also a very good golfer, the course. So when checking in asked if they could play off the back tees. You know the answer already. NO!. They had a boys competition coming up in 6 weeks and wanted to save the tees. Parry reassured them that he wouldn't have a divot with his driver. But they would even just let him play from the backs by himself. It became a fiasco. Craig played from the tees of the day and tried to get his tee shot from those tees to when his ball would have been if he had been playing from the Open tees. He mostly hit 5 irons, but one or two seven irons got hit too. We could have laughed it off easier if we didn't attract a group of 10-15 spectators, some of whom were Rangers making sure he didn't creep back- then they had the audacity to ask for autographs.

Craig did himself proud. He did as he was asked. Laughed at the situation, was nice to everyone.... and vowed never to go back.

I can't blame him.

scott

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