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Matt Kardash

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Follow the link. basically the green is more horseshoe shaped now with a nasty bunker pot.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/46738757.html
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Phil McDade

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 10:08:27 PM »
Matt:

Thanks for posting. Some interesting comments posted with the article on the changes at WS.


Steve D

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 11:38:33 PM »
I was there about 3 weeks ago and saw the new bunker.  I didn't care for it much.  It seemed a little ridiculous to me.  Although, in my opinion nothing can top the bunker at 17 for ridiculousness.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 01:42:12 PM »
I found the caddie's opinon in the blog part of the link, most useful.  I think he has it right, and has great credibility and sense given he has such history day in and out at Whistling Straits.  I played the hole in its original version.  It was a short par 4 with an interesting and wide field of play to position your wedge or very short approach.  It was and still is called Gremlin's ear.  In the original, the midline FW bunker shape was what I interpreted as the gremlins ear, although the entire hole corridor may have been the theme's point.  Then, they cut the FW about in half and the midline FW bunker became more of a turning point bunker.  They also narrowed the previously wider FW approach LZs on 8 and 13 at the turning points in similar fashion for the 04 event and Senior Championship (which I thought was anti-golfer and too restricting).  The original approach from the FW right was over a deep and steep approach, while the deep left FW approach was moderate and took the racetrack tumble down and into green for the longest of hitters.  (as I remember it).   

This new bunker seems grotesque and rediculously contrived.  I think I get the idea that the player positions for a wedge or lob wedge up to one of the lobes, to demonstrate his finess to be on the correct side of the bisecting hazard, or pay a price in it.  But, in my view as a regular, avid yet average skill golfer, it isn't the kind of feature I'd ever plunk down somewhere north of $350 by which to be beaten up. 

I think 'caddie knows best' on this one.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Colton

Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 02:34:36 PM »
Wow, I'm not liking the looks of it from the pictures.  Plus, I'm not really in any hurry to plunk down $400 to play WS again.  I like the  little pot bunker that was there before.  Perhaps they could've made it into a road-hole type pot bunker without going so far into the green.  I'm sure the pros will hate it.  But it will generate a lot of discussion.

PCCraig

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 02:53:37 PM »
I like it!

If the hole is still played somewhat short (sub 375) it should really bring some strategy and fairway placement to the hole in order to attack the right portion of the green.

Did Pete Dye do the work himself?

I'll be there in October to check it out for myself.
H.P.S.

Niall C

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 03:03:59 PM »
Whats the reason for it ? Is it just a gimmick ? Does WS need a gimmick ?

I've also got to wonder how long it will last once players who are on the green but have been stymied from getting to the pin because of the bunker start taking chunks out of the green when they decide to use wedge.

Niall

RJ_Daley

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 03:05:28 PM »
Quote
Did Pete Dye do the work himself?

Now that is an interesting question on several levels.  One might ask, what do you consider 'do the work himself' to mean.

If it merely means, dreaming it up and sending his team to build it to his specs, well I'd ask if this isn't the most extreme work he has ever done!  :o ::) :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

PCCraig

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 03:24:30 PM »
Quote
Did Pete Dye do the work himself?

Now that is an interesting question on several levels.  One might ask, what do you consider 'do the work himself' to mean.

If it merely means, dreaming it up and sending his team to build it to his specs, well I'd ask if this isn't the most extreme work he has ever done!  :o ::) :-\

I meant who came up with the idea? Kohler or Dye or both? Or the PGA?
H.P.S.

JSlonis

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 05:17:13 PM »
Hope they have a fair amount of ready to go green sod there.  By the looks of that bunker and green they are going to need it.  Resort golfers + wedges of the green surface = trouble x $$$

What is the angle of approach into that green?  It's difficult to tell from the photos how that green is oriented to the line of play.  Is the bunker in the middle with the horseshoe to the right and left?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:19:34 PM by JSlonis »

Tony Gorski

Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 12:26:31 AM »

I think Mr Daley summed it up best...........nice work.

To this day I do not understand the overall goal at WS.  Is it resort golf?  Is it to create an authentic Irish links?  Or gimmicks (bunkers on 2, 8, 10/11....now 6 - which i much preferred prior to the change)? Mr. Kohler's original intent seems to have gotten lost.  This course's ranking continues to baffle me.


Anthony Gray

Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 07:52:17 AM »


 DOes Ws need A gimmick? What a question.

  Anthony


Phil McDade

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Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 10:47:59 AM »
Tony:

WS was built to host major tournaments -- US Opens, PGAs, the Ryder Cup. That was Herb Kohler's ultimate goal when he built the course, and there's little doubt he's succeeded in that (one PGA so far, two more lined up, and a Ryder Cup coming up).

WS would not have been built, I believe, without the success that came with his initial duo of courses in Kohler -- the River and MV courses at Blackwolf Run. Those courses, now @ 20 years old, were viewed in Wisconsin golfing circles as a real stretch, as a model of golf economics here in Wisconsin -- they were priced well above any other high-end courses in the state (think SentryWorld), and lots of folks wondered what Kohler was doing. He wanted to build the two courses because lots of guests at his company's upscale resort in Kohler wanted to play golf (Kohler even briefly considered buying a local private golf club), and he had a very good piece of land, winding around a river, in which to build the two Kohler courses.

Kohler, a true golf nut, had taken several trips to Scotland and Ireland, some of them with Pete Dye, and after having played Ballybunion (so the story goes...but I'm told it's reliable), Kohler turned to Dye and said: "Build me this." He bought an old military dump site on the shores of Lake Michigan north of Sheboygan, gave Dye an unlimited budget, and thus was born WS (and the next-door Irish course). The entire WS complex is designed to host big tourneys -- a flat piece of land away from the lake is laid out to host big tents, the Irish Course provides warm-up and relief practice areas, and there is plenty of room for parking. In many ways, it's a course specifically built to host majors.

WS remains THE destination for the upscale golfing experience in Wisconsin, in part because of the cache it holds from hosting a major and its setting, which is pretty cool (half the holes hug the shoreline, and nearly all of the others have a view of the lake). It has a caddie program, stricly enforces a walking-only policy, and has sheep grazing the course. It's designed to imitate the Irish/Scottish golfing experience in the Midwest.

The course creates lots of debate about whether it's a true inland links. I've heard the turf, particularly the turf fronting the greens, is not linksy enough, and tends to grab balls, the opposite of what you'd see on a true links course.

Jamie: The hole is one of three short par 4s designed by Dye on the WS course. All three play somewhat similarly -- choices on the tee, with offset greens that theoretically can be driven (or close to driven). The 6th played at 355 yds for the '04 PGA, with a tee shot over a marsh/pond to a narrow fairway with lots of trouble and bunkers lining the entire right of the fairway. The green is shallow but wide, and offset to the right of the fairway (toward the lake; the 6th is not one of the shoreline holes at WS). It's not a true dogleg -- moreso a straight fairway with an offset green right. Taking a conservative route on the hole -- safely on the left side of the fairway -- leaves the golfer with a short pitch to a green that opens up, because it's offset to the right (similar to how a tee shot at the 13th at Augusta that hugs the left side of the fairway, near the creek, opens up the 13th green at ANGC -- same principle applies here).  There are actually three pot bunkers fronting the 6th green; the one that's been expanded I believe is the middle one.

I'm guessing the strategy of the 6th (with the expanded bunker) is to make the hole player more difficult, esp. with pins on the right half of the green past the expanded bunker. The hole played as the second-easiest of the course's par 4s during the '04 PGA (3.9418 stroke average), with 54 birdies compared to 33 bogeys and 2 doubles.




Tony Gorski

Re: Pics of new greenside bunker on 6th hole Whistling Straits
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 06:17:25 PM »
Phil - thanks for the reply.  As a native of WI and having played those courses many times over the years, I couldn't agree more with your story of the courses in Kohler..........and how the River and Meadows helped out........and how there is definitely ample room for the big tents, traffic, etc...........(save the 20 minute ride to get to the course from the hotel).  And there is no question WS has been a resounding success for the man, the city and the state.  I'm happy to see great courses in WI (e.g. Lawsonia, MCC, Bluemound CC, Erin Hills, University Ridge, and most any other course approved by RJ Daley) get recognized and always root for the home state.

However, from an architectural perspective I still remain puzzled.  Regarding WS, you actually made my point.  The fact that Kohler (so the story goes) plays Ballybunion, says "Build me this..." and the result is the current WS course?  WS is no BB.  Something was lost in the translation.

I've never understood carving bunkers on the sides of dunes that have no strategic nature.......and not one or two, but dozens or more.  And to Steve's point above, the placement of bunkers all over the course (the one on 17 he references, the bucket-sized one on two above the fairway bunker, the mine field on 10/11, this new change on 6, etc.) just seems silly and a bit over the top and takes away from the layout.......instead of improving on it. 

I know the terrain in the area was/is extremely flat and applaud the creativity that must have been required to get to the result.  But I don't happen to be a big fan of the interpretation of Irish links that's been presented. 

I won't argue the comment about making the course more challenging for the pros as that whole concept justifies its own thread.....