Not enough love for Tumble Creek

[Daryl David]

Today I had the pleasure of playing Tumble Creek and once again went away wondering why this Doak track doesn't get more love from GCA.  The course is a boat load of fun with some of the most subtly deceptive greens you will ever see.  Surprisingly very walkable for a mountain layout with breathtaking vistas.   One of Tom's best efforts that few folks have seen.   

Lots of talk on this site about Chambers Bay and Wine Valley.  When you make your trips to check those out, carve out some time for TC.  It is well worth the detour.

[Bill_McBride]

Daryl, what's the access situation?  Those others are public, I don't know about Tumble Creek.

[Matt_Ward]

Daryl:

Of all the Doak layouts you have played where would you place Tumble Creek ?

One other question -- would TC make your top 25 overall or top 50 courses ?

t h a n k s . . .

[Sean Leary]

I am a TC fan as well, especially the first 13 holes.

Holes 4 and 11 would make my all Doak 18 for sure.

Bill, it is private and has been rather difficult to get on on the past. My understanding is that has changed a bit, and that you may be able to get on with a call from your pro.

If you weren't bailing on coming to the Pac NW this summer I would arrange a round with you.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, next year!  You guys will still be there, right?   

[Daryl David]

Matt,

My Doak list is short at only 5 played, but I would put TC in the same league as Stone Eagle and the Renaissance Club, slightly behind Rock Creek and way behind PD and Ballyneal.  The second question is a bit tougher.  It would probably make my personal top 50 (those I have played) and would definitely be top 50 if I was doing only modern courses per the Golf Week definition.  That said, it really doesn't matter to me if it is top this or that.  It is just great fun to play.  With the wind you get normally there combined with tricky greens it is also not a pushover.

[Daryl David]

Bill,

A really nice double header is Tumble Creek in the AM and then Aldarra in the PM.  Sean and I can hook you up on that!   

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

In my poll of my associates last year, Tumble Creek finished 10th of the 25 Renaissance courses that we rated ... which is not bad when you consider the rest of our top ten.  I bet you would really like it, although you (like Sean) might not rate the flatter holes at the bottom (14-17) as highly as the rest.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Thanks -- 10th is quite good given the caliber of courses you are talking about.

I'd be curious to know how you would stack TC against the likes of Rock Creek. As you know, I really enjoyed
the par-4 holes at RC and think they are the best I have ever played from your handiwork (no doubt I have not
played the courses you created down under thus far).

Daryl:

Thanks ... wow, you have TC just a bit behind Rock Creek. That's saying plenty.

I find Rock Creek to be closer to the likes pf Pac Dunes and Ballyneal than you do. So be it.

I simply asked to get some sort of context on where it stacks up against others that Doak has done that you have
played and from an overall standpoint.

One last thing -- is there something you would cite as an element of Tumble Creek that stands above other elements you have seen when playing a Doak layout.

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

Was there consideratiom to move dirt on 14 to 17?

[Daryl David]

One last thing -- is there something you would cite as an element of Tumble Creek that stands above other elements you have seen when playing a Doak layout.

Great question Matt.  I would have to say for me it is subtle nature of the greens.  What looks like a straight forward putt can really turn into something else.  Plenty of undulation, but not as dramatic as say Ballyneal or Stone Eagle.  I find them baffling to read sometimes and I wonder how much the mountain topography has to do with that.  Everyone I have played with gets 4 or 5 putts a round where they are flat fooled and miss wide left or right.  Fun to watch good players get stumped!    

[Peter Ferlicca]

Mr. Doak,

If you don't mind me asking, what were the top ten courses your associates ranked?  If I had to take a gander I would assume it is

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  Ballyneal
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Lost Dunes
7.  Sebonack
8.  St. Andrews Beach
9.  Stone Eagle
10.  Tumble Creek or Renaissance Club

So, obviously one of them has to go, I am just curious which one is not in the top ten.

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Doak,

If you don't mind me asking, what were the top ten courses your associates ranked?  If I had to take a gander I would assume it is

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  Ballyneal
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Lost Dunes
7.  Sebonack
8.  St. Andrews Beach
9.  Stone Eagle
10.  Tumble Creek or Renaissance Club

So, obviously one of them has to go, I am just curious which one is not in the top ten.

You could put that top 10 up against any architect of all time....

[Sean Leary]

You guys are nuts if you think he is going to answer that. He can't in fairness to his clients.

[Jim Nugent]

Mr. Doak,

If you don't mind me asking, what were the top ten courses your associates ranked?  If I had to take a gander I would assume it is

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  Ballyneal
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Lost Dunes
7.  Sebonack
8.  St. Andrews Beach
9.  Stone Eagle
10.  Tumble Creek or Renaissance Club

So, obviously one of them has to go, I am just curious which one is not in the top ten.

Bet CK didn't place as high as second.  Maybe 5th or even 6th. 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

A really nice double header is Tumble Creek in the AM and then Aldarra in the PM.  Sean and I can hook you up on that!   

Thanks, Daryl, put me down as a definite maybe! 

[Mike Hendren]

Mr. Doak,

If you don't mind me asking, what were the top ten courses your associates ranked?  If I had to take a gander I would assume it is

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  Ballyneal
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Lost Dunes
7.  Sebonack
8.  St. Andrews Beach
9.  Stone Eagle
10.  Tumble Creek or Renaissance Club

So, obviously one of them has to go, I am just curious which one is not in the top ten.

You could put that top 10 up against any architect of all time....

You could indeed, but you might lose.

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

That's the right courses, but not in the right order.  Sean is right, certain clients would prefer I kept quiet about which courses were 7th, 8th and 9th in our poll.  But I do intend to put up our top ten (alphabetically) on our new web site which should debut soon.

The Renaissance Club was not in the top ten, but of course most of the associates have not really played it yet -- heck, I've only played it once, two years ago, before it was really ready.  We will all be over there in a couple of weeks and we are really looking forward to it.  But I wouldn't say it's a lock for our top ten; it's a tough battle there.

One thing I WOULD like to point out is the identities of my lead associates for the eleven courses you named:

Pacific Dunes (Urbina)
Cape Kidnappers (Hepner)
Barnbougle Dunes (Schneider)
Ballyneal (Hepner)
Rock Creek (Iverson)
Lost Dunes (Tom Mead)
Sebonack (Urbina) (and/or Jack Nicklaus )
St. Andrews Beach (Slawnik)
Stone Eagle (Iverson)
Tumble Creek (Slawnik and Chad Grave)
The Renaissance Club (Placek)

That's seven or eight different guys.

P.S. to Michael H.:  You're right, I probably lose.  But I'm still working on my list.

[Kalen Braley]

Mr. Doak,

If you don't mind me asking, what were the top ten courses your associates ranked?  If I had to take a gander I would assume it is

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  Ballyneal
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Lost Dunes
7.  Sebonack
8.  St. Andrews Beach
9.  Stone Eagle
10.  Tumble Creek or Renaissance Club

So, obviously one of them has to go, I am just curious which one is not in the top ten.

You could put that top 10 up against any architect of all time....

You could indeed, but you might lose.

Bogey

I think you could put that resume up against any modern architect....

[Mike Hendren]

Kalen,

I'm hard pressed to disagree.  Only Tom's mentor comes to mind.

Bogey

[Wyatt Halliday]

Strictly from what I've been told, Stone Eagle appears to be too low on this list. I was surprised to see it at 9, I thought it would fall somewhere between 4-7.

[Kalen Braley]

For those who are Pete Dye afficinadoes....Joel Z, are you out there? 

How would his top 10 stack up again this one?

P.S. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Old Mac makes Tom's list so it gets even better.

[Matt_Ward]

PFerlicca, et al:

I'd be curious to find out how many Doak courses people have played from the list that was provided by PFerlicca? I would not count The Renaissance Club because no one outside Tom's staff have played it to date.

I've played six (6) of the list and would have to really think about the actual rank order -- frankly the issue is the top of the list for me --likely Stone Eagle would grab my bottom position. Lost Dunes would finish in the 5th spot.

[Michael Dugger]

MODERN COMPETITION

1.  Sand Hills
2.  Friars Head
3.  Old Sandwich
4.  Bandon Trails
5.  Hidden Creek
6.  Colorado GC
7.  Kapalua Plantation
8.  Cuscowilla
9.  Sugarloaf Mt.
10.We Ko Pa

Not so shabby either.....

[Mike Hendren]

mdug,

Duh - what a stupid I am.  Thanks for bringing C & C into the discussion. 

This will be widely unpopular, but Tom Fazio deserves a mention in my book.

Mike