French Lick Dye

[Doug Ralston]

I had some GKL friends who got onto the new Dye course at French Lick. Since I have not seen a review here since it opened, perhaps you would like to see their thoughts.

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1701

Might be worth a look.

Doug

[Brad Swanson]

I think this quote from the DG thread is quite interesting.

French Lick is a great location compared to Kohler and Bandon.

Is being the home of Larry Legend that big of a pull?

Cheers,
Brad

[PCCraig]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

[Doug Ralston]

I think this quote from the DG thread is quite interesting.

French Lick is a great location compared to Kohler and Bandon.

Is being the home of Larry Legend that big of a pull?

Cheers,
Brad

Hehe. Depends on what kind of BB fan you are.


Seriously, you did notice that quote was not allowed to stand, yes? Still, it is obvious [to me because I know Gump to be a pretty fair golfer] that this course is both very beautiful and very, very challenging. And, as was pointed out, the grow out of the rough is still far from complete.

Sounds to me like perhaps PGA Stadium has come east?


Doug

[Doug Ralston]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

My point exactly Pat. I am hoping several of those here who will want and can see it might go back there and give some clear assessment. I think this might be a useful barometer of quality vrs investment in this economy too.

As I said ....... word of mouth is still the best ad, positive or negative.

Doug

[Chris_Blakely]

http://www.frenchlick.com/golf/peteDye/index.jsp

I know this was talked about on a previous thread, but in the picture above, I count 10 to 12 volcano bunkers!!!!    That seems excessive.  I also noticed on the link above, that they back tees play at over 8000 yards!!!

I wonder how long they can continue at 14 rounds a day before they stop charging $350.00 per round?

Chris

[PCCraig]

I wonder how long they can continue at 14 rounds a day before they stop charging $350.00 per round?

I read after my visit that the resort is having a tough time, with the casino (usually the money maker) being one of the worst in the state for revenue. They have deep pockets behind them in the owner, but eventually that will have to end.

Many on the Kentucky board said that "word of mouth" gets people in to play golf. The resort and golf is very good in French Lick, but for Chicago I would rather go play the better courses of Kohler and stay there for the same price and get there in 2.5 less hours of driving. However I would say it's worth a 5 hour drive/trip once every 5 years or so.

[PCCraig]

Anyone have any idea why it still doesn't have a course rating/slope 3 months after being opened?

[Andy Troeger]

The Dye course is without question the hardest course in Indiana and the probably the hardest course I've ever played considering the amount it can be stretched to. Even from the shorter tees its REALLY hard--too much for me.

The Ross Course is my favorite at the resort and much lighter on the wallet.

I posted more detailed thoughts on a previous thread.

[Chris_Blakely]

Anyone have any idea why it still doesn't have a course rating/slope 3 months after being opened?

For the 8120 yard tees, b/c they have not found any bogey golfers that want to be sacraficial lambs!!!!!

[Doug Ralston]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

Pat;

GKL is not really an architecture website, so the slant will be different. But some insight to be had.

And now they are putting some really good pictures there themselves, though quite different in perspective from yours. Take another look at the evolving thread perhaps:

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1701

Doug

[PCCraig]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

Pat;

GKL is not really an architecture website, so the slant will be different. But some insight to be had.

And now they are putting some really good pictures there themselves, though quite different in perspective from yours. Take another look at the evolving thread perhaps:

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1701

Doug

Doug/Wilma-

Just a word of advice, I wouldn't link a discussion board thread from another site in which you yourself are making comments about the general wealth and "snooty"-ness of GCA.       But I digress.


I really liked the Dye French Lick Course, and pictures really don't do the views justice at all. I don't think they will ever admit it, but I think the site and property had some major restrictions as it used to essentially be a huge steep hill, so building up the fairways along the hills was a huge effort and it shows in some of the narrow/cliff hanging fairways (think #3 / #18).

I still give Dye credit for trying new things even at his age with those Volcano bunkers, which in person are pretty cool as they are bigger than they look in the pictures, but they really dont come into play unless you shank your drive.

Another note, the course record your buddies note of 85 must be from the 8000 yard tips, because I got around in 81 from the 7250 tees    I hit the ball darn near perfectly all day, and made a couple putts too, but when the eventual missed fairway happens, it is very easy to make a double or worse (the key is missing to the right sides of the fairways). When I was there they sure seemed confident that a major was coming their way eventually and is a clear goal of theirs. Considering the height of the property, there is always wind up there, and the course is far more penil than WS in Kohler. So if hard golf courses are the standard for bringing PGA's to sites, than they shouldn't have a problem.

[Chris_Blakely]

I still give Dye credit for trying new things even at his age with those Volcano bunkers, which in person are pretty cool as they are bigger than they look in the pictures, but they really dont come into play unless you shank your drive.

Pat,

I have not played the course.  But the picture on the website has at least 10 VB's all of which seem to be out of play.  If they are out of play why so many, why even have them.  I would think this detracts from such a great piece of property.

Chris

[PCCraig]

I still give Dye credit for trying new things even at his age with those Volcano bunkers, which in person are pretty cool as they are bigger than they look in the pictures, but they really dont come into play unless you shank your drive.

Pat,

I have not played the course.  But the picture on the website has at least 10 VB's all of which seem to be out of play.  If they are out of play why so many, why even have them.  I would think this detracts from such a great piece of property.

Chris

I think I can see using them on that corner of the property, as its probably the most dull area full of land with great views. To give you an idea, the first hole plays sharply downhill (close to 100 feet downhill) then curls into one of the lowest parts of the land used for the course, the 2nd tee is directly next to the 1st green and sits somewhat low for the property limiting any real views until the green. So without those bunkers I think the hole would be somewhat straightforward and be a bit of a snooze before climbing up the hill a bit to get to some exciting holes. 

[Andy Troeger]

Personally I think the course would be significantly better if they took every fairway and doubled the width of them--given those angles and the the high potential for some wind and I think I could average 1-2 fairways hit per round. Happily I got lucky on quite a few instances and had playable shots, but others were totally dead. Quite honestly, that's not much fun.

Pat,
You're obviously a much better golfer than I am, but those volcano bunkers are VERY much in play for most people. It takes some skill of course to actually get IN the bunkers, but there will be a lot of people hacking off the sides. Given the steep slopes its basically a hack out to the fairway if you're lucky. I also think they're even more bizarre looking in person than in the photos, but that's just me.

[Doug Ralston]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

Pat;

GKL is not really an architecture website, so the slant will be different. But some insight to be had.

And now they are putting some really good pictures there themselves, though quite different in perspective from yours. Take another look at the evolving thread perhaps:

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1701

Doug

Doug/Wilma-

Just a word of advice, I wouldn't link a discussion board thread from another site in which you yourself are making comments about the general wealth and "snooty"-ness of GCA.       But I digress.

ROFL


I really liked the Dye French Lick Course, and pictures really don't do the views justice at all. I don't think they will ever admit it, but I think the site and property had some major restrictions as it used to essentially be a huge steep hill, so building up the fairways along the hills was a huge effort and it shows in some of the narrow/cliff hanging fairways (think #3 / #18).

I still give Dye credit for trying new things even at his age with those Volcano bunkers, which in person are pretty cool as they are bigger than they look in the pictures, but they really dont come into play unless you shank your drive.

Often mounding and bunkers are used to stop from going to less desirable places, like roads, feed outs to lost, or other fairways. A thought, I haven't been here, of course.

Another note, the course record your buddies note of 85 must be from the 8000 yard tips, because I got around in 81 from the 7250 tees    I hit the ball darn near perfectly all day, and made a couple putts too, but when the eventual missed fairway happens, it is very easy to make a double or worse (the key is missing to the right sides of the fairways). When I was there they sure seemed confident that a major was coming their way eventually and is a clear goal of theirs. Considering the height of the property, there is always wind up there, and the course is far more penil than WS in Kohler. So if hard golf courses are the standard for bringing PGA's to sites, than they shouldn't have a problem.

As I said, PGA West Stadium revisited.

I suspect, too, that the course will likely be made more economically available in the future. But do you think the PGA will look at this as a possible site? Or will it be like the Dye Stadium, simply too hard to get the players to be willing to compete on? Afterall, they refused to go back to Stadium, leaving it to poor qualifiers of q-School.

[PCCraig]

Not too sure about many of the comments made on that board that speaks to the quality of the design.

I posted a thread and about 20 pictures about a month ago when I visited with my camera.

Pat;

GKL is not really an architecture website, so the slant will be different. But some insight to be had.

And now they are putting some really good pictures there themselves, though quite different in perspective from yours. Take another look at the evolving thread perhaps:

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1701

Doug

Doug/Wilma-

Just a word of advice, I wouldn't link a discussion board thread from another site in which you yourself are making comments about the general wealth and "snooty"-ness of GCA.       But I digress.

ROFL


I really liked the Dye French Lick Course, and pictures really don't do the views justice at all. I don't think they will ever admit it, but I think the site and property had some major restrictions as it used to essentially be a huge steep hill, so building up the fairways along the hills was a huge effort and it shows in some of the narrow/cliff hanging fairways (think #3 / #18).

I still give Dye credit for trying new things even at his age with those Volcano bunkers, which in person are pretty cool as they are bigger than they look in the pictures, but they really dont come into play unless you shank your drive.

Often mounding and bunkers are used to stop from going to less desirable places, like roads, feed outs to lost, or other fairways. A thought, I haven't been here, of course.

Another note, the course record your buddies note of 85 must be from the 8000 yard tips, because I got around in 81 from the 7250 tees    I hit the ball darn near perfectly all day, and made a couple putts too, but when the eventual missed fairway happens, it is very easy to make a double or worse (the key is missing to the right sides of the fairways). When I was there they sure seemed confident that a major was coming their way eventually and is a clear goal of theirs. Considering the height of the property, there is always wind up there, and the course is far more penil than WS in Kohler. So if hard golf courses are the standard for bringing PGA's to sites, than they shouldn't have a problem.

As I said, PGA West Stadium revisited.

I suspect, too, that the course will likely be made more economically available in the future. But do you think the PGA will look at this as a possible site? Or will it be like the Dye Stadium, simply too hard to get the players to be willing to compete on? Afterall, they refused to go back to Stadium, leaving it to poor qualifiers of q-School.

I highly doubt they are ever going to decrease the cost. They'll use it to get some big wheel gamblers to the area with golf Comps, hope to take a bite out of the Kohler-like clientel, and hope that a few hotel guests here and there will want to play it as a "once-in-a-lifetime" round with a caddy.

It's a shame that they push carts so much there...its amazingly walkable.

[John Mayhugh]

Have those that played there actually paid the quoted $350 rate?  If so, how would you compare the overall value with courses in a similar price range?

[PCCraig]

Have those that played there actually paid the quoted $350 rate?  If so, how would you compare the overall value with courses in a similar price range?

It's just me, but in that price range I would rather play WS-Kohler or TOC-Kiawah.

[Doug Ralston]

deleted

[Andy Troeger]

John,
There's no value anywhere at $350 IMO, but the Dye Course isn't even close to the quality of Whistling Straits, Spyglass Hill, or any of the other top 100 level public courses with equally high prices.

For folks in the area, you could do a nice weekend in Indianapolis playing 2 or maybe even 3 very nice courses and including food and shared hotel and gas for approximately $350 if you played your cards right. The Fort is a Pete Dye/Tim Liddy design and its more fun anyway.

French Lick does beat out Trump National LA though IMO in the $300+ price grouping. 

I will be really interested to see how this course does on the "Best New" lists.

[Jim Colton]

I will be really interested to see how this course does on the "Best New" lists.

I'm willing to bet top 3 at else.  Who else is it going to compete against?

I can't wait to see a course lauding itself as Top 10 You Can Play, even when it's #10 out of 10 total courses built that year.

[Ben Sims]

Why is this course already asking 300+ to play?  This isn't meant to offend, but isn't market saturated AND in recession right now?

[Andy Troeger]

I will be really interested to see how this course does on the "Best New" lists.

I'm willing to bet top 3 at else.  Who else is it going to compete against?

Depends on the list--the way GolfWeek does their list with courses appearing in multiple years and including everything together there's a fair amount of competition (Rock Creek, Martis Camp, Cornerstone, Tetherow, Idaho Club, the new one in WV that I'm forgetting, maybe Rainmakers, probably a couple others), but Golf Digest's public listing might not have much competition other than Sand Hollow. Obviously that's all conjecture since I haven't played most of them.

[Dave Harner]

Hello everyone! Dave Harner, PGA Director of Golf for the French Lick Resort! I have been reading several of the posts and just wanted to make myself available to the posters if there are any questions or things that need to be clarified. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss golf at French Lick with everyone!

I guess my first comment is that the Pete Dye Course is doing about as we expected. We wanted to provide a golf experience that is truly an experience from our Hotels to the Course, to the Restaurants and back. I am not sure everyone is aware, but to play the Dye Course, you MUST stay in the Resort, so the idea of playing the course for the $350 as a drive in customer won't happen, in fact, we know that if you only drive here, pay the fee and play, you won't have the experience we want you to have, however, our Hall of Fame Golf package is $550 per person and includes a day at the Dye Course and an overnight in the West Baden Springs Hotel, which is ranked in the very top of list of great Hotels in America, then a day of golf on the Donald Ross Course. This is the customer we are looking for, not just the drive in player!

I guess secondly, as far as the design, yes, it is difficult, yes, it is controversial, but that is what you get when you sign up Pete Dye! Pete has been absolutely phenominal, making well over 100 trips to the site and giving his personal touch to every detail.