Green to Tee Transitions - Poppy Ridge (Livermore CA)

[Kevin_Reilly]

There were comments recently about the longer walk from the new 7th green at Olympic Lake to the new 8th tee.  I don't think the longer walk is a big deal, but the cart path maze in the area is an aesthetic negative (the Lake course is not a continuous cart path course, but there are paths around some of the greens and slope areas where cart traffic would wear the course or have trouble with the slopes).  The walk itself is now c. 100 yds, versus an adjacent (30 yds) tee for the old version.

So green to tee transitions were on my mind this morning as I played Poppy Ridge in Livermore, CA  with my regular Saturday morning group.  We usually play Tilden (a hilly course), and always walk.  So we elected to walk today, with the first off tee time (7 am) on the Merlot and Zinfandel nines.

Poppy Ridge, owned by the NCGA, must be one of the most difficult "walks" in golf.  Green to tee distances are substantial.  Many elevated tees.  There are few, if any, walkways through the long grass for walkers to make their way to the different tees.  In that respect, walkers are almost an afterthought.  Which might not be surprising, because I saw only one other walking group on the course while we were out.  So we would either need to walk along the winding cartpaths, or else trudge through long grass (home to rattlers).  The 8th green to 9th tee on the Zinfandel nine in particular stands out...it is a few hundred yards, with much of it uphill.

Net result...tired legs at the end, but we made it and were one hole ahead of the foursome behind us (on carts).  We did not need to wait on a single shots since we were first out on the Merlot nine and never approached anyone on the Zinfandel nine, but it still took us 4:15 to play because of the extra time from the long walks.  And by long, we're talking lonnnnnng.

Poppy Ridge was built on land unsuitable for golf, and the golf that is played there is principally cart-ball, and that's unfortunate for the course owned by the NCGA.  I wouldn't recommend the course for that reason alone (and there are other negative aspects of the course  -- excessive mounding, too many elevated tees, soft/soggy conditions in a drought year) .

[Rob Rigg]

Kevin,

In the quest for a supposed dollar many courses make walking a huge pain in the ass as they try to perpetuate the descent into cart ball that we face in this country.

Long green to tee transitions can be manageable under most conditions.

What is extremely frustrating as a walker, and is obviously the case at Poppy Ridge, is when a course is designed without a straight path from tees to fairways. Having to hit, then walk along the cart path until you get to the fairways is ridiculous. Unless it is an impossible design feature to intergrate due to terrain change or something, it does not make sense because a walking path is so easy to add.

Chapeau to your guys for making the hike despite the odds stacked against you.

[Kyle Henderson]

Livermore is my hometown, and while I do find some things to like about Poppy Ridge, I always laugh when I see their advertising pitches that purport the "Scottish Heathland" characteristics of the layout. The course is purely for aerial play, aside from putting. Wet, wet, wet.

Sadly, most of the Tri-Valleys courses are difficult walks, even our old Bell  layout.

[astavrides]

From my one play of the course some years ago, I recall that it is even harder to walk if you have a pull cart.  I seem to remember pulling it over many curbed cart paths and much high grass, down and up hills, to get from green to tees.

[Brent Carlson]

Kevin,

I think you're right on.  It's not really a course for walking.

For 35 bucks it was a good time: good views, uncrowded, etc.  My non GCA friends thought it was great.  Of course we were searching for balls on every hole on a windy day. 

Like you said it played very wet.  I believe it also has an affiliation to Poppy Hills.

[David_Tepper]

Kevin -

I am sure the relative merits of Poppy Ridge have been discussed here in days gone by. It does seem a shame a course complex developed & operated by a golfing association is so difficult to walk. There is one green to tee walk on the Chardonnay nine that must be 200 yards.

Since Poppy Ridge does seem to drain pretty well in the winter, I have always been surprised to find it so soggy in spots during the summer months. Perhaps they feel they have to saturate the course to keep it from baking out when it gets hot and the wind comes up.

I have always thought that Poppy Ridge would be a good place for those carts that have a rack for 4 golf bags. That way, a foursome could walk quite a bit of the course but not have to worry about carrying their bags up and down the hills between holes.

DT     

[Kevin_Reilly]

In that respect, walkers are almost an afterthought. 

Upon reflection, I would delete the word 'almost'.  There are no accommodations for walkers from green to tee.

 soft/soggy conditions in a drought year

My drive on the first hole of the Merlot nine, an uphill par 4, plugged completely in the fairway 110 yds from the green.  Conditions were soft all over the course.  The course must be overwatered, because it surely isn't due to Mother Nature.  Maybe it dries out later in the day?

[Scott Henderson]

As a Livermore resident I have to agree with the comments everyone has made.  As a sad addition I must admit, too, that with the exception of The Course at Wente Vineyards it is in better condition than any of the other courses in town - they are either much soggier or there are many bare patches.  Few of the distances from green to tee at Poppy Ridge are reasonable walks - and some are just ridiculous.  If you start on Zinfandel the walk from the 9th to the 1st tee on Merlot is probably about 1/2 mile and includes a considerable elevation rise.  At least it plays somewhat faster now with the removal of much of the really shaggy fescue - it is now much easier to find shots that are only a little distance off of the fairway.

[Tom Huckaby]

As a volunteer course rater for the NCGA... and a huge supporter of the organization... believing it to do great work for the golfers of our area... I still have to say....

we all ought to be ashamed of Poppy Ridge.  Kevin is right on - it's a HORRIBLE walking course, nay a course seemingly built to defy anyone to walk.  I guess they did what they had to do with the land available, but still.. it's not good for our golf association to promote such cart-ball.  On top of that heck yeah, the course is always WAY too wet, pretty much year-round.

I used to somewhat like the course... then came to kinda tolerate it... now it's active dislike.  Quite seriously the more I play that course the more I do dislike it.  It's sad as it is the site for many NCGA tourmaments....

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

Never say never, I'm playing Poppy Ridge tomorrow morning, 6:10 tee time with my usual group.  Walking, of course. 

I wish I had one of those meters you clip to your belt to measure # of steps...in lieu of that, I'll get my watch out and time the walk on some of the transitions.

My legs are feeling great after 36 holes yesterday...I am ready!

[ed_getka]

I don't imagine the NCGA built this course to promote golf cart rentals. I would imagine they got a pretty good deal on land that wasn't very suitable for much else.
To Poppy Ridge's credit they do have a fantastic practice facility which is where I worked on my game most of the time until my next GCA trip came around. The most damning thing I can say about the course is that in 70-80 practice sessions a year I rarely (if ever) was tempted to go out and play.

[Kevin_Reilly]

True, Ed, the practice facilities are top notch.  Hopefully they open at 5:30 or so for a few warmup swings.   

Hope all is well with you and the family.

[Tim Leahy]

I had high hopes for Poppy Ridge and as a cart baller that didn't bother me, however, the course maintenance the last time I played there was awful. Played in the Spring last year and vowed I would never return. Greens were overrun with weeds and green surrounds could have been declared unplayable in some areas. I expect more from the NCGA.

[Tom_Doak]

I have never been to Poppy Ridge and from the reviews I've seen, it's not on my short list of courses to visit.

So, I have to ask, WHY did they build such a hard course to walk? 

Is it in a development and they had to take the corridors that maximized real estate value?

Did they just get a ridiculously hilly site because it was cheap, and there was no way to design it to be walkable?

Or is it just a bad routing because they didn't care about walkers?

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I doubt your q's are answerable. However, I suspect the latter. Caring more for cart revenue then walkers.

The course is a study in what not to do. Other than the lone tree on property. We used to have a standing $1k barky par for anyone who dared to try. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

I have never been to Poppy Ridge and from the reviews I've seen, it's not on my short list of courses to visit.

So, I have to ask, WHY did they build such a hard course to walk? 

Is it in a development and they had to take the corridors that maximized real estate value?

Did they just get a ridiculously hilly site because it was cheap, and there was no way to design it to be walkable?

Or is it just a bad routing because they didn't care about walkers?

No, it's not in a development...it is surrounded by ranches and vineyards.  The only homes visible are ranchers' homes (just a handful, though one is gigantic and not very attractive).

I would guess the NCGA got the land - which was probably attractive for its proximity to parts of the Bay Area - cheap, and built the course with no thought that it would be walked.  Today we played Chardonnay and Merlot, and the Chardonnay nine in particular is a chore to walk.  The tone is set early with the trek to the first tee from the clubhouse...it is a longggggggg walk along a path to get to a distant tee that is on top of a hill.

One oddity of the course is the similarity of two par 3's...Merlot #8 and Chardonnay #7.  The Merlot hole is 168 vs 182 for the Chardonnay hole, but visually they are very similar...downhill shots to small heavily bunkered greens.  When our group got to Chardonnay #7 (our back nine), we did a double take and wondered whether we had taken the wrong path to the tee and ended up back on Merlot #8 again.   Each of us thought that was the case.

The course was very wet, and the greens were poor.

But, the practice facilities were great!

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Here is an aerial...it is sort of remote by bay area standards and it seems like they could have done more with what they had to begin with.

[Kyle Henderson]

I have never been to Poppy Ridge and from the reviews I've seen, it's not on my short list of courses to visit.

So, I have to ask, WHY did they build such a hard course to walk?  

Is it in a development and they had to take the corridors that maximized real estate value?

Did they just get a ridiculously hilly site because it was cheap, and there was no way to design it to be walkable?

Or is it just a bad routing because they didn't care about walkers?

-The parcel consists of steeply rolling foothills with small arroyos running through it.
-The NCGA clearly wanted each of the 3 9-hole loops to return to the clubhouse so they could spread play evenly.
-The difficulty rating of each nine (slope and stroke) is identical, such that one need only report which color tees they played from (and not which of the nines they played) along with their score for handicap purposes. This must have required a concerted effort and forced the architect to apply a strict formula (two pars 3's, two par 5's, fairly equitable yardages, etc.) on a difficult site that might have worked better with a less "formal" routing.

[ed_getka]

I have never been to Poppy Ridge and from the reviews I've seen, it's not on my short list of courses to visit.

So, I have to ask, WHY did they build such a hard course to walk? 

Is it in a development and they had to take the corridors that maximized real estate value?

Did they just get a ridiculously hilly site because it was cheap, and there was no way to design it to be walkable?

Or is it just a bad routing because they didn't care about walkers?

Tom,
   It almost certainly was #2.

[Mike Benham]

A few comments:

Kevin - Did it read it right that you disliked the course so much on June 20th that you went back and played it again on July 3rd?  (and a sidebar, how is that you are teeing it up so much lately?)

Kyle - I too think there is something fishy about the ratings where any combination of 9s yields the same slope/course rating.


And remember, it is a Scottish Heathland style course ...

Attached is a link to an NCGA Marketing Plan PDF for Poppy Ridge which I believe was done in early 2008.  It shows the statistic of rounds played from 2002 (74,000 rounds) to 2007 (56,000 rounds) ...

http://www.ncga.org/_pdf/pridge_marketing.pdf.pdf

[Scott Henderson]

I too have wondered about the ratings being identical.  Just exactly how does one accomplish that?  It seems like a lot of work for little purpose.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Kevin - Did it read it right that you disliked the course so much on June 20th that you went back and played it again on July 3rd?

Yes, you must have attended a Jesuit school - you are a quick study.   

  (and a sidebar, how is that you are teeing it up so much lately?)

Did Mrs Reilly ask you to post that?  Traci had the boys up with the inlaws, Little League is over, yesterday was a national holiday, July is typically a slow month in business, and I'm not a couch potato.