What do you think of the rebuilding of Congressional's greens?

[Jerry Kluger]

Congressional will close the Blue Course shortly after this week's tournament in order to rebuild the greens by installing a new drainage system - see the article below.  They say the greens were rebuilt around 20 years ago and they appear to have used USGA recommendations in doing so (I thought it was more like 15 years ago but it was shortly before the Senior Open where they had more dirt than grass to putt on.)  Now they are installing a newer drainage system but keeping the exact same contours in the greens because they do not want to go down to the gravel.  What does this say about USGA greens or is it simply because they want to have better looking greens?  Will they be able to keep out the poa and is this necessary in order to do so? 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/30/AR2009063001472.html

[Carl Nichols]

I don't know enough about this kind of stuff to know whether it makes sense and/or is even necessary to have better greens.  I do know that for the last several years Congressional's greens have not been nearly as good as several of the private clubs close to Congressional.  I also know several members who believe that Congressional would be ranked higher on the various lists if it had better greens (or were otherwise in better condition). 

[Jerry Kluger]

Carl: I hope ratings aren't the reason for member support.  My recollection back in 1997 was that they did have some type of drainage system installed where they could force air under the greens.  Let's see how the greens putt this week to see if the greens are that bad.  Which courses in the area have better greens - have they been rebuilt since Congressional's?

[Carl Nichols]

Jerry:
I don't think the ratings are driving this -- I think they genuinely want better greens and think the greens could be better, and they have courses in the immediate vicinity that show them it's possible.  IMHO, the greens at Bethesda, Chevy Chase, Lakewood, Four Streams, and maybe Columbia, are better right now.  Four Streams is pretty new, and each of the other courses has had some work done to it over the last 20 years -- though I'm not sure how much.  My closer contacts there are very excited about this, including the fact that the work is being financed by revenue from past and upcoming events. 

[Chip Gaskins]

They had to do something with all that money from the Tiger Woods Foundation 

[Ian Larson]

I can assure you that this isnt about ratings primarily. Its about pain in the ass greens that arent performing as well as they should be in the subsurface. And because the subsurface isnt performing at its best, the surface isnt performing at its best.

Congressional has poa annua. The Mid Atlantic, especially around DC and Baltimore, is the worst place ever in the entire country to manage poa annua.

And this also is not a case of whos greens are better in the same region. Each property has its own challenges and issues when it comes to micro climates and water quality. These 2 things alone can drastically make a difference between say Congressionals greens and Chevy Chase for example. Yes, the common golfer can make observations about differences but the common golfer has no idea what is going on below the surface. This is a huge decision to make for Congressional and that only tells me they have some serious issues below the surface. Chevy Chase, for example, may not. And in result have better greens for it.

My first question would be why are they choosing to grow from seed instead of washed sod sooo close to the Open. Greens grown by seed, especially in an area that has a winter season, normally need at least 1 year to mature into a decent playing surface. I would be nervous undertaking this project knowing that I only have the rest of this season to establish the seed. Next year to really grow it in and groom it. Then have the US Open at the beginning of the next summer. In normal circumstances that would not be a problem, but hosting the US Open and preparing your greens for that tournament quality is quite the task.

The only reason I bring up washed sod is because they can lay it right after they complete a green and in a couple weeks be mowing it. Its going to throw down some good roots very quickly for establishment. My only guess as to why they are choosing seed is because they have to. Because they chose a certain bent mix or blend that is not grown in and ready to cut at any sod farms on the east coast to do this on schedule.

Another question would be are they planning on hosting Tigers tournament next year as well? That would really be  a stretch.


Heres another question.....

For all of you out there, and we know youre out there, who dont like the idea of USGA spec greens. What would have Congressional choose as a growing medium for the new greens?   Straight sand....straight push up dirt...mix dirt with straight sand?  There seems to be a strong stance against USGA spec and the USGA being involved with things like this. What would your recommendation be?


This is going to be a daunting project with the time line and expectations. Giuffre is a good super and I have no doubt he and his staff will be successful. When that last putt drops in 2011, they are going to be rockstars.

[Carl Nichols]

Ian:
As I mentioned, I don't know enough about this stuff to have an opinion about whether they're doing it the right way, etc., etc., I am merely relaying specific opinions I've heard from members.  And while it may be true that there are different microclimates and soil cultures within a 5-10 mile radius of Congressional, I don't think the typical member knows or cares about that -- they just see that better greens down the street are possible, and that's certainly one reason that the typical member (whose support for such a project is important/necessary) gets on board.

PS:  They're playing Tiger's tournament in Philly next year.     

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   The greens on the Blue course were rebuilt in the early 90's.  At that time the rebuild was in anticipation of both a 95' Senior and 97' US Open if memory serves.  It may have crept back into the late 80's so the 20 year reference may not be that far off.  From reading the article it is clear to me that this is a complete rebuild of the greens.  The sod, rootzone and drainage stone is being removed and replaced.  In construction terms it would be called a core out.  The subgrade will remain as is and this is how the greens can be faithfully returned to the same contour.

     With reguards to making comparisons.  I was the Supterintendent at Chevy Chase from 1990 - 2000.  During the planning for the eventual rebuilding of the greens and entire golf course we had more than one conversation about how to avoid the problems that Congressional was enduring.  I do not know what happened with the rebuild at Congo. and can only tell you what was done at Chevy. I know that at Chevy we used a much different root zone material as compared to Congressional. 

      I think it's important to know that Congo. has more resently done major work on the Gold course and I assume this involved some new greens.  I am sure that Mike Guiffre has been able to determine what is going to work for them now.  Mike is an excellent Superintendent.

     

[Joe Hancock]

Ian,

You ask some tough questions! I don't have the answers, either.

One of the issues is building greens that require an irrigation practice that favors poa....USGA greens need frequent watering regardless of the grass on top. So do pure sand greens.....

Another issue is the type of club that can't manage the water for the best possible interests of the desirable grasses due to the country club mentality; green, soft, fair, pretty, etc.

I think these types of situations are just set up to have to replace or rebuild all too often, IMO.

Joe

[Mark Smolens]

Sean, as someone who clearly knows much more than most on the board, what are you thoughts on Ian's suggestion of an issue regarding timing these changes less than two years before the '11 US Open (Mr. Nysse, as one of the other professionals in this field who regularly contributes here, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well)?  Aren't they running a risk that these greens won't be up to snuff in 23 months when the event rolls around?  When I first read this article on Shaq's blog, my gut reaction was that this seemed to be a pretty drastic step for a course which will be hosting our national championship in fairly short order.  

From a non-professional's point of view, I will say that the greens at Cog Hill's Dubsdread have changed pretty dramatically, for the better!, from the time I first played them in May to yesterday.  Mr. Jemsek told me that the grow-in is coming along "fine," and as a result the greens are being cut much lower than they were back when the course first re-opened.  Although the greens remain extremely firm (hard?), you can now make a ball mark and sometimes even make an approach shot stop.  Most of those greens, at least those on the back nine, were re-seeded and re-done in the fall of '07.  I know the USGA likes their greens to be hard, but on our first trip around Dubs I don't think that there was a single shot into a green that actually stopped in a remotely reasonable period of time.  

Needless to say, I'm interested to hear from you supers out there who can educate me. . .

[Greg Chambers]

I agree that the timing is tight, but if all the greens are seeded this year, and they have all of 2010 to grow them in, then they will be fine for play in 2011.  I did a grow in at a course in Denver where we had all greens seeded by September and we were open the next July, putting on great surfaces.

[Mark Luckhardt]

We installed XGD on the Gold greens in 08, a precursor to having the Gold course in prime condition while the Bliue is under the knife. The Gold is a fine track restored by Arthur Hills several years ago, and is a great 18. From what I have heard regarding the Blue greens, it is consistent with the mix being 20 years old, and probably a questionable choice back then. It would seem to modernize the rootzone in this instance would be the right thing to do. There is no doubt Guiffre knows what he is doing there.

[Carl Nichols]

Mark:
Forgive the ignorance, but what's XGD?  Do you have a sense of why they didn't do the greens at the same time as the Hills work? 

[Mark Luckhardt]

Carl,     XGD Systems is an internal subsurface drainage system we install in to mostly older soil pushup greens. The Blue greens here aren't a candidate for this as they are a USGA version already. But, the gold greens were modernized utilizing XGD.

The Hills work was several years ago, and I don't believe they had secured this upcoming open yet. My sense is we were contacted to do this work immediately after their decision to renovate the blue greens.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   23 months is plenty of time under normal circumstances.  Obviously these are not normal.  1. It's the UP Open. 2. It's the Mid-Atlantic transition zone. This means there will be zero tolerance for distractions or delays.  Mike is an excellent Superintendent and I know that he has properly prepared and stacked the deck in his favar as much as he can.  I am sure that he has done plenty of research and experimentation with the new rootzone material and grasses that will be used.  His eyes are wide open.  He will have the full attention of one of the best contractors in the business. I assume McDonald and Sons, not sure.  Mike can keep the traffic way down on the new Blue greens as he has the Gold course and plenty of neighbors to put his Members on.  It is the US Open and there will be unlimited resourses available to him to get it done and he will do a fine job.

     Will the new greens be firm for the 11 Open?  Yes.  The greens will be very new and Mike will do plenty of topdressing so there will be very little thatch to cusion the rootzone.  This should make for a very intersting Open set up given the following:  No more square groves and graduated rough.  I am not on board with all the 500 yard plus par fours but I do like the new trends in Open set ups.

[Jerry Kluger]

My recollection was that the rebuild of the greens for the Senior Open was a disaster.  I can remember there being very serious thoughts about moving the event and I attended and the greens looked like dirt surfaces.  What is wrong with what was done back then - there was some kind of a system installed where they could force air under the greens so they could monitor the amount of moisture.  I am completely ignorant about what happened or what should have been done but someone seems to have not done what was necessary at that time and I would be nervous about doing it again.

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, it's a waste of money.  The greens look fine.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Jerry,

  The rebuild prior to the Senior Open did go bad for whatever reasons.  I don't know as I only heard rumors.  Bill Black was the Supt. during that rebuild but his tenure was short and Paul Latshaw Sr. was hired about 18 - 24 months prior to the Senior Open.  The basic problem with the new greens seemed to lie in the rootzone mix.  I can only assume this based on the actions that Mr. Latshaw took to deal with it.  He started an very aggressive aeration program with deep tine, drill and fill of all shapes and sizes of tines.  Removing the cores and aggressively topdressing.  This type of program tells me that the new rootzone was no good and he was attempting to change it.  The Senior greens where not great but the weather that year was worse case seniario if I recall, mush like this year with excess rain.  By the 97 US Open Paul had the greens in much better shape.

  The forced air system is call Subair. I am not positive about this but I would not be surprised if Paul did  have it done after he got there.  This system can be retrofitted into most USGA Spec greens because it utilizes the drain pipe under the greens.  Blowers are connected to the drain pipe outside of the green and you can pull are out or force it in.  I believe Paul helped develpe this system at Augusta.  I used a similar system at Chevy Chase.  Paul also had an extensive fan system installed at the Blue when he got there.

   Dan you may be right.  I am not sure what all has happened to those greens in the last ten years or so. I can only assume that continued aeration and topdressing has improved the rootzone over the years.  They may have regrassed to a newer variety of bentgrass as well.  Someone must be very sure that this rebuild is a requirement.