What am I missing about Hazeltine that the PGA of America keeps seeing?

[Jay Flemma]

So what is it that the PGA of America sees ARCHITECTURALLY about Hazelnut...errr...Hazeltine that made them come back twice in seven years and lob them a Ryder Cup.

I look at these pics from their website and I think it needs to be Oakmonted...why would you post these as pix from your yardage guide?  You can't even see the holes?

Number 3



Number 4



Number 6



Why the heck would you post that as your picture of 6??? You can't see anything!

What's good about the design of HazNat?  It looks penal and long and flat and uninteresting in pics and in reviews?  Anyone?


Oh well...at least it's not medinah, which looks to me like this:

[Jason Topp]

Jay:

Hazeltine is chosen because of location in a market that does not host a regular tour event, infrastructure and the enthusiasm of its members for hosting big events.  At the time Hazeltine signed its deal with the PGA, the PGA was negotiating similar 2 PGA/1 Ryder Cup deals with venues (I cannot recall the others).

I am not the biggest Hazeltine fan but trees are not a problem on the course.  They are very sparse except for the Southeast corner of the property and provide many of its more interesting holes.
 

#3 is a terrific 3 shot par five that cleverly uses a dip and left to right slope to require the player to choose between laying back to a bit more than wedge yardage on his second or place a very accurate more agressive 2nd for a pitch

#4 is a par 3 with an interesting green that plays a bit redanish (although that picture does not look like 4 to me) 

#6 is in my view the best hole on the course.  It is a relatively narrow dogleg left par 4 of around 410 yards and a severe green up against the water.  I saw a wide variety of strategies off the tee varying from a staight iron to very agressive drivers just short of the green.

Another hole in the trees is 14 which is a good short par four that is very narrow - forcing the choice between a layup and an agressive tee shot near the green.

[Ian Larson]

"I look at these pics from their website and I think it needs to be Oakmonted...why would you post these as pix from your yardage guide?  You can't even see the holes?"

....couldnt agree more with being "Oakmonted". It looks completely overgrown.

[Jay Flemma]

I think they sent Mr. Magoo to take the pictures:)

Jason, Medinah and Whistling are the other "2 PGA/1 Ryder deals."

I hear three is a decent hole, I just can't see it from the pix!

Anybody have architectural analysis of this course?

[RJ_Daley]

Jay, I think it is just a big parkland course that is about as good as a regular tour stop, but has plenty of room on the boundaries for parking and tents that makes it attractive for the event, and the Minnieapple market is good sports town.  I don't think the course sucks.  But, it doesn't have much that is memorable in any classic sense.  Maybe the shortish par 4 #10 dogleg left down a steep hill to  the green seemed moderately interesting to me watching the previous PGA.  #16 is something of a pennisula or reverse cape of sorts, and has the Payne Stewart bridge which is a Swilcan burn sort of thing.  A couple of commercial par 5s that are OK.  Maybe par 3, 4th is the best of the par 3 lot.

[Charlie Goerges]

I kept my program from the last PGA, I'd be happy to scan a few pages for "fair use" here. It also has a Trent Jones drawing of the 6th green.

[PThomas]

Hazeltine is better than I thought it would be

and Jay that was a bit over the top re Medinah, no??

[Wayne_Kozun]

So what is it that the PGA of America sees ARCHITECTURALLY about Hazelnut...errr...Hazeltine that made them come back twice in seven years and lob them a Ryder Cup.

You're assuming that the PGA cares about quality of architecture on the courses that PGA of America events.  I think their choice of courses would show that quality of golf course architecture is somewhat down the list of characteristics that they look for.

[Jason Walker]

Wayne-
Nail on the head.  The fact is, the PGA doesn't care.  It's probably number 5 out of 5 criteria points for choosing a course with the PGA.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

As a Minnesotan who has played Hazeltine a handful of times and been out to the '02 PGA I can only agree that there isn't much to like architecturally. There's just enough going on to qualify for a major but as you mentioned nothing to write home about. That being said it is a challenge just based on its sheer length, thick rough, and decent greens that have enough undulation to make the 13 on the stimp speeds challenging during a major. I'll echo that the extra space and strong golf market are huge factors in picking the course as well.

I am a pretty long hitter (who is some time accurate) who shouldn't mind the length as much but the course is just not that fun to me and I always feel like I just went 15 rounds with Tyson when I get done playing it.

I question how anyone could have fun playing it everyday especially compared to the big 3 clubs in town that are Interlachen/Minikahda/SpringHill as well as the newer Windsong Farms (that is further out of town than Hazeltine).

It's a course that takes me a few minutes to replay in my mind and hard to remember individual holes because they all blend together other than 10 and 16 as previously mentioned. This is even after I've played it 5-6 times where as after playing Pasatiempo just once I can describe every hole in detail for comparisons sake.

One place some architecture is clearly missing, 9+18. You can easily confuse the two and neither have anything I would want to copy anywhere else.

As for it needing to be Oakmonted, I am not sure how much that would help. I guess some but I'm not sure how much that is left would be considered good architecture.

[John Moore II]

Yeah, courses have to have the structure around them to host a major event. Its why, even if they wanted an event, a place like Sand Hills or Ballyneal could not host a major (well, unless they wanted to build an international airport and 10,000 room hotel on the property). They simply don't have the things needed to get people in and out and staying nearby. And the structure in place is why Torrey, Medinah, Atlanta Athletic Club host major championships.

I am honestly surprised Pinehurst #2 gets the events given where it is located. There are 'few' hotel rooms in town and the nearest otherwise (of any amount) would be Fayetteville or Cary, which are both an hour away.

[Jim Franklin]

Patrick -

Your views are near identical to mine. I have a hard time remembering any of the holes at Hazletine and really did not like it. Of the courses I played in Minnesota, it was the one I liked the least.

Paul -

Since you found it a good course, what did you like about it?

[Jay Flemma]

Great to see you, Jim Franklin!  Come one out to the Inniscrone day:)

Paul, if it is over the top, it doesn't miss by much...my guess is that we alll have one course that makes us shake our heads in dismay...for me, it's Medinah.  It wouldn't bother me so much if it was a once on a blue moon thing to have a big tournament there...but it represents and underscores everything wrong in the age of the doldrums of GCA and yet it gets two PGAs in 7 years and a Ryder Cup.

i think medinah represents everything that GCA.com and those of us that study architecture got into the game for in the first place, to rally with others that there are better courses out there and that just because we see a course on TV or because woods wins there, that doesn't make it good.  When I chat with the other writers, I frequently hear that when it's medinah's turn in the rotation...oops!...sorry!  family Vacation that year!

I intend to let fly at Medinah in my PGA Championship preview as well as point out the shortcomings of HazNat.  There are a lot of similarities on several levels.  I'll partly let fly because I want to use the pieces I write to promote GCA, and partly because I think Medinah makes itself an easy, funny target, and partly because a lot of other writers feel the same way.

Dan Jenkins, in Slim and None:  the clubhouse at medinah is either a meeting place for shriners, or the architect designed it after putting on a fez, and hitting every bar on Rush Street.

is it fair to call Hazeltine the Medinah of the North?

And again...does anyone else out there scratch their heads over these pix?  Why would they take and post pix from the middle of the woods?

[Jay Flemma]

I kept my program from the last PGA, I'd be happy to scan a few pages for "fair use" here. It also has a Trent Jones drawing of the 6th green.

thanks, that'd be nice.

[Jason Topp]

Jay

If you take your shots at the course, make sure they are accurate and based on actual knowledge of the course.  Even though Hazeltine is not my favorite course in the world, it has plenty of merit and I have plenty of friends that are proud members of the place.

I would argue that holes 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16 and 17 are very good holes and that there is not a bad one in the remainder.  The greens are good to very good with several interesting and unconventional contours.  The course is a pretty good one for a PGA because it allows players with different strengths to contend - just look at the leaderboard from the last PGA - it included long hitters, short hitters, ballstrikers and short game guys.   

[Jason Topp]

And again...does anyone else out there scratch their heads over these pix?  Why would they take and post pix from the middle of the woods?

Who cares?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

And again...does anyone else out there scratch their heads over these pix?  Why would they take and post pix from the middle of the woods?

Who cares?

That's one of the first things in this thread that I can agree with.

[Jay Flemma]

And again...does anyone else out there scratch their heads over these pix?  Why would they take and post pix from the middle of the woods?

Who cares?

I'm interviewing Rees and others who have played it, and have some extensive resource materials to look through.

As for the pix, they are the pix in the on-line yardage book!  How are we supposed to see the holes through the trees?  This is supposed to be an on-line yardage guide...great picture of six trees...can't see the fairway or green!

[Greg Krueger]

In my view Hazeltine is a very good test for the best players in the world. The only holes I don't care for are
9,15 & 18. 9 & 18 are almost identical long, uphill par 4's that run side by side coming up the hill to the
clubhouse. 15 is a routine 3 shotter with not much interest. I would say the winning score will be somewhere
between 5 and 10 under, but if the wind blows even par would be a heck of a score.

Hazeltine when it first opened was not a very good golf course and it deserved some of the comments made
by players during the 1970 US Open. It is a very different course now and may be one of RTJ & Rees best
designs. (I know that is not saying much)

[Greg Krueger]

Jay, those are without a doubt very poor photos. I think the club got screwed on that yardage book! But that
being said there is definitely NOT a tree problem at Hazeltine

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with Greg that there is not a tree problem at Hazletine, I just thought it was a long, boring course. It is an excellent championship course, but I would much rather be a member at Interlachen, Minikahda, or even Golden Valley.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I played at Hazeltine in the USGA State team championship a few years ago.
A very good test of golf..tests every aspect of your game and as such is a good venue for a major.
Architectural masterpiece..certainly not...the course is a little disjointed at best, certainly has no flow to it, but perhaps that is one of the reasons it is such a good test, it keeps you off guard all the time.

Unlike most on this site, I have no problem with trees lining fairways...I think they serve as a useful penal result to poor shots as long as they are well placed.
The trees at Hazeltine fit that description.
If you ere in them you deserve to be punished.
A long tough course, perhaps not too attractive, but again a good test for the worlds best.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

You miss the big picture partner.

The PGA of America has made it a point to be dominant in the midwest section of the USA -- you can see the move with their usage of various sites in the area -- OH/S, Medinah, Hazeltine, etc, etc.

The PGA knows how close the USGA is with many sites in the northeast and therefore has until very recently avoided that area. The lone major exception being Baltusrol in '05 and again with the PGA Championship in the next decade.

To answer your questions -- Hazeltine is blessed with a membership that enjoys such events -- let me point out that Minnesota stil has, I believe, the largest percentage of golfers within their state's population so the game is dear to many there.

In regards to the course -- it is far better than what was present prior to Rees Jones getting involved. Your pictures were slanted to a few holes -- the rest of the course has plenty of sunlight gracing the fairways and surrounding areas.

Greg makes a fair point on the redundacy of the 9th and 18th holes. They are failr similar. But there are many solid holes too -- the downhill dog-leg 10th is quite good and much has been written on the famed 16th hole which Rees superbly created.

Hazeltine provides the needed logistics and nember support to hold such an event. It is not Oakmont or Shinnecock Hills or even Bethpage Black -- but it's a worthy test and if set-up properly -- unlike what the PGA did last year with OH/S will likely provide its fair share of excitement.

[Kalen Braley]

I thought I would take a look at an aerial view for comparison. It didn't jump off the page to me as being overly treed even though the one corner of the course seems to have quite a few.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, you bring up a great point - that if the minnesotans love golf, I should highlight that in my piece too.