[PCCraig]

This past weekend during a trip to Indianapolis I had the chance to play Crooked Stick. I believe as of today they are 26 days away from the start of the U.S. Senior Open, and the tents were starting to come up, with (according to an assistant Pro) the USGA starting to take over the daily maintenance of the course.

My questions though with regards to Crooked Stick is that many, both on GCA and off, have said that the course used to be much better before Pete Dye started tinkering with it in order to either prepare the course for a major event, or to keep up with modern equipment. (The main example usually given within this period of Dye's work that has been left untouched is The Golf Club, which is highly regarded by most).

Can anyone who is familiar with the course and its changes give specific examples of changes over the years that have either negativly or positivly affected the course's design and playability?

Also when reading about the course, many mention that Dye used Ross, MacKensie, and Raynor as inspiration for the different holes. Call me crazy or unknowledgable of Golf Course Archetecture, but I'm not sure I can see any heavy influence in the design that shows those certain charectoristics.

Maybe the best example is the Par-3 17th, which is supposed to be a Redan, and is a very good long par-3 (1 of 4 awesome par-3's IMO). Correct me if I'm wrong, but older photos make the right side look far higher and more pronouced and make it looke more like a traditional redan. Is this an example of Dye's work over the years that has made his traditional features more subtle?

In anticipation of the Senior Open, does anyone have any general opinions of the course that they would like the share as I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about it!

P.S.- A good story during my visit. As I'm walking off the 18th tee and toward the fairway I notice a man in a cart with a white dog following him around the trees on the left. When I get closer I realize that it's Pete Dye and I introduce myself as a fan (total GCA-dork move) and say that I enjoy his work and had just played his new course in French Lick. After a 1-min conversation I start off down the hole and tell my 7th grader caddy that I just met Pete Dye, to which he responds "Oh you mean that guy in the cart that was just taking a wiz over there in the woods?"

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

A lot of the features of Crooked Stick that were inspired by other architects, were changed in style by Mr. Dye during the renovation of 1985, when all the greens had to be regrassed due to C-15 decline.  (C-15 was a cultivar of bentgrass that suddenly started dying off.)

Since the course had to be closed, Mr. Dye used the closure to make other changes as well.

The seventeenth was changed most dramatically.  It wasn't a Redan to begin with, just a long par-3 with a very steep back-to-front green.  Pete had never liked how it turned out and was determined to change it.  At that point in his career he had just built PGA West, and many of the greens and bunkers that were re-done are in that style.

I can't remember all of the changes ... I do have slides of the course from 1981, but they're not a complete set.  I do remember that the short 3rd green had bunkers that looked more Mackenzie-like, and the green of the par-5 15th was based on one of those "horseshoe" greens like the two at the University of Michigan course.  There were also a couple of greens which seemed distinctly Ross-like, which don't anymore with the new and deeper bunkering.

The course was not way better beforehand; however I did prefer its eclectic variety and laid-on-the-ground feel over the aesthetic of the PGA West remake.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

A lot of the features of Crooked Stick that were inspired by other architects, were changed in style by Mr. Dye during the renovation of 1985, when all the greens had to be regrassed due to C-15 decline.  (C-15 was a cultivar of bentgrass that suddenly started dying off.)

Since the course had to be closed, Mr. Dye used the closure to make other changes as well.

The seventeenth was changed most dramatically.  It wasn't a Redan to begin with, just a long par-3 with a very steep back-to-front green.  Pete had never liked how it turned out and was determined to change it.  At that point in his career he had just built PGA West, and many of the greens and bunkers that were re-done are in that style.

I can't remember all of the changes ... I do have slides of the course from 1981, but they're not a complete set.  I do remember that the short 3rd green had bunkers that looked more Mackenzie-like, and the green of the par-5 15th was based on one of those "horseshoe" greens like the two at the University of Michigan course.  There were also a couple of greens which seemed distinctly Ross-like, which don't anymore with the new and deeper bunkering.

The course was not way better beforehand; however I did prefer its eclectic variety and laid-on-the-ground feel over the aesthetic of the PGA West remake.

Thanks for the brief run down Tom.

Now that I think of it, that is very cool that Mr. Dye got the idea for the horseshoe green from the U of M course (I think #4 the short par-4 is the horseshoe green that I'm thinking of there). But I believe that the one at CS is much more broad in scale and really makes the short par-5 hole very interesting considering the pitch shot to the front pin I had was pretty hard and I can't imagine a back pin would of been any easier.

Do you have any idea why this green template isn't used more often? It seems that at both U of M and CS it is used on "half-par" holes, I'm assuming because of the risk/reward qualities of the green type?

Also, which holes would you say remain closest today to what they were like pre-1985 renovation?

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