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Nathan Cashwell

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Biarritz green on a par 4?
« on: June 30, 2009, 09:55:58 AM »
Does anyone have any evidence or know of an original C.B. MacDonald, Seth Raynor, or Charles Banks course that has a par 4 (2 shot hole) with a biarritz style green? Or a biarritz green sans flanking bunkers on one or both sides?  For easier classification let's call a 2 shot hole 250 to 450 yards.  From everything that I have found their biarritz's were usually long (200 - 230 yards) par 3's and all seem to have a flanking bunker(s) along at least one side of the green.  Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
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Ray Cross

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 11:18:41 AM »
Nathan,
Yes, the Greenbrier course at The Greenbrier Resort in WV has one. It is the 15th hole of 406 yards from the tips. This hole has been called the Biarritz since it was built in 1924 by Raynor and Mac. In fact,  all the so-called "template" holes are here: i. e. Cape, Redan, Alps, etc. Best I remember the hole was a slight dog-leg left.
Nicklaus reworked several holes in 1977 for the Ryder Cup.

Try www.greenbrier.com and look under the golf courses to get some limited details about early Greenbrier history.

good luck

Ray
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 11:21:21 AM »
Blue Mound in Wisconsin has a hole called "2 shot Redan" with a Redan green on a par 4.  No reason they couldn't have moved another green style over to a par 4 either.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Nathan Cashwell

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 11:44:34 AM »
Ray: Thanks for the head's up!  I went to the website and found the scorecard from 2007.  Sure enough there it is.  A very interesting Biarritz, in that it seems to angle from front right to back left and the swale runs perpendicular to that line making is run at an angle when played from the fairway.  I haven't seen that before.  I wonder if it was original, or part of Nicklaus' modifications.  Thanks again.

Jeff: I would agree.  I have seen some versions of a "2-shot redan" like the one you described and I see no reason for not using another typically par 3 green style for a par 4 or even a par 5.  In Bahto's book he describes holes that use elements or strategies from two or more of MacDonald's/ Raynor's templates to create a unique hole for that particular golf course or a new type of hole that they use sparingly on other courses.  I also noticed that some holes are labeled "double-plateau/ biarritz" in that they show resemblances to each type, but not overwhelmingly more of one than the other.  That might explain the different angle and bunkering of the hole that Ray mentioned at Greenbrier.  It is kind of a mesh between a double-plateau and biarritz which was my first thought when I say the picture on the scorecard.  Either way it looks like a fun hole.

Thanks again for your help.
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BCrosby

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 12:04:36 PM »
Nathan -

It wasn't your question, but there are several wonderful Biarritz greens on par 5's by architects other than CBM and cohort. I think it is a better application of the idea than using the green at the end of a very long par 3.

Bob
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Greg Holland

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 02:07:11 PM »
I think the 18th at Monroe by Ross has one.  Here is an excerpt from a thread about Monroe:

Quote from: Greg Holland on November 07, 2008, 08:45:07 PM
What is the 18 green like -- on both plans there are 2 lines running across the green.  Is it a biarittz type green?

On my home course, we have a drawing for a  par 3 by Ross with a swale/depression, but running on a bit of a diagonal instead of perpendicular to the tee shot.  That is not how the hole plays today, but he designed it that way. 


Greg,

That's quite a good description.    There is a pronounced hollow running through the green, set at a diagonal.   

You can imagine the variety of shot options one might encounter depending on hole location.   

Monroe is tremendous fun from start to finish.   The comments are spot on and I find it to be one of my very favorite Donald Ross courses, similar to Plainfield in some respects, yet with its own panache and character.

The first three holes are very good, but numbers 4 and 5 are both incredibly creative uses of natural landforms and then it just hums along wonderfully from there.
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George_Bahto

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 03:12:25 PM »
ALL ORIGINAL Biarritz holes built by  Macdonald, Raynor and Banks were par-3 holes - anything beyond that was a modification, a re-name or whatever by a club or another architect later.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim Nugent

Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 02:01:52 AM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on June 30, 2009, 03:12:25 PM
ALL ORIGINAL Biarritz holes built by  Macdonald, Raynor and Banks were par-3 holes - anything beyond that was a modification, a re-name or whatever by a club or another architect later.

Do you know who changed the par 4 at Greenbrier into a Biarritz, and when? 
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George_Bahto

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 05:37:37 PM »
Jim, I have the original plans, original scorecards and a lot of photos - I'll ck when I get a chance - I do have a great picture of the Biarritz on the original Mac/Raynor Greenbrier course which I will post

sometimes people get confused thinking a double-pleateau green is a Biarritz, I think
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim Nugent

Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 05:45:17 PM »
Ahh, George, it's not really a Biarritz then? 
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George_Bahto

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Re: Biarritz green on a par 4?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2009, 09:57:55 PM »
Jim, the 2 Biarritz holes at the Greenbrier were true Biarritz holes not DP's - don't let my last post confuse you, please.


The Two Biarritz holes at the Greenbrier Resort:


Course #1 called the Old White:

In an article written by (famed in many circles and scorned in others) Henry J Whigham, Editor in Chief of Town and Country magazine he stated:

“Mr. C. B. Macdonald, the founder of the National Golf Links at Southampton, who is recognized as the greatest authority in the country, has kindly lent his assistance, and his advice has been carried out by Mr. Seth Raynor, who did a great deal of work on the new Piping Rock course on Long Island. As might be expected many of the holes will be reminiscent of the National and Piping Rock. The short holes, by which a golf course generally stands or falls, are all first class. They include a Redan and an Eden and a full drive hole taken from Biarritz France which has also been used at Piping Rock.”


Biarritz on the Old White Course - Hole #3:

1922 Article, American Golfer “Around the Map”:

“There are many features that betray the Macdonald touch. At the third we find the “Biarritz” hole first fashioned at the ninth at Piping Rock.”



Let me explain the early course numbers at the Greenbrier Resort

*  Old White (1913-1914) was referred to as Course #1

*  Lakeside a 9-hole course was referred to as Course #2 .... this course was an older short course on the property built in 1910 by Alex Findlay and was done over in 1922-23 by Raynor when he was building Course #3 (below)

*  The original Greenbrier Course (1921-1922): built by Macdonald and Raynor was referred to as Course #3 but I later years this course was plowed under and replaced by Nicklaus for the Ryder Cup to be held at the resort


Biarritz on the Greenbrier Course (Course #3) Hole #10 - originally built at  220-yards:

In a 1920 Golf Illustrated writer J Lewis Brown described the 10th hole on the “new” Greenbrier Course:

“.... the tenth is a pretty one-shotter, two-hundred twenty yards as one to see. The green I built up so that it falls precipitously away on all sides, but from the front there is a good, wide run-up for the shorter player.”
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson
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