[Bill Brightly]

I have no problem with a forced lay up on a short par 4. But I do have problems with forced lay ups on long holes. Which makes the 8th at Pebble Beach a conundrum for me: I think it is a great hole but I hate having to lay up to hit a 200 yard shot...

What is it, a great golf hole or just a really hard hole with fantastic scenery?

[Anthony Gray]

  Isn't the difficulty of the hole at the green? It looked to me that even if it played a lay-up and a wedge it still was not an automatic par. I think they choose not to drive it because of the green complex insted of the distance.

  Anthony

[Chris Ord]

i got the sense from watching the coverage that positioning off the tee made an enormous difference.  coming in from the left side seemed much more favorable than the right.  so sure, the pros were hitting five-woods off the tee, but they had to be well-struck five woods.  plus, look what happened to jonathan byrd - missed the fairway by a little bit and paid the price with a flyer lie than landed him in the "forget about making par from here" back bunker.  i bet he wishes he had those two shots back. 

a properly placed tee-shot followed by an exacting wedge with serious consequences seems like a darn good hole to me. 

[Carl Rogers]

I had little idea this thread would get the number of responses.  Let me add some additional points or counterpoints ...

What I and others have suggested about 14th at MV does not remove all the lay up and wedge options.  I think the fairway is way too wide and too easy to hit.  Perhaps that is a counter to the severely narrow angled green. 

Let's see what changes JN continues to make to the course.  Hasn't the 17th hole at MV been lenghtened and totally re-worked at least twice?

The manipulation of the drive left to right and right to left was at a time part of the game.  Tee shots that challenge both direction and length (making the player understand how far or how short they hit the ball and choosing the correct direction) are the way to eliminate the mindless driving game.  The 17th at Carnoustie might be a good example of that.

[Lyne Morrison]

Let's be honest here - the short par 4 does NOT need to be driveable to be great.  In fact, it's a trend that is completely misunderstood/expected in today's game. 

What is WRONG with a 325 yard par 4 that can't be reached?  It brings back more of the great core of the game - ecacting wedges, hitting it on the proper side of the hole, punishing/rewarding green contours, etc.

It brings back THOUGHT, nerves, and the ability to MANAGE the game.  The short par is a treasure of the game - it holds all the values of what the game IS - strategy, distance control, steady nerves on short approaches.  Does anything rattle the long hitter more than not executing properly on a hole that, by scorecard standards, be an easy par or birdie? 

Nice post Mike.

In general terms the other positive about such a hole is that it can be more inclusive than those with a premium placed on distance. If more players are fully engaged - that's a good thing in my mind.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

No offense but I'm going to bust you again on this hole.

One of the great things about a short par-4 is that it's the type of hole where you can vary your angle of approach the most.  If you're approaching from 180 yards out, the difference between the left side of the fairway and the right side is only maybe 5 degrees of approach angle; but if you're driving within 80 yards of the green, the angle of attack can vary much more.

So, if you are designing a green complex that rewards a certain angle of attack, you'd want to make the fairway wide on a hole like that to reward the player who sticks it over on one edge of the fairway, and lull to sleep the rest of the guys who just aim for the middle.

Low handicappers often opine that on a short par-4 the fairway should be extra narrow, or that there should be no run-up to the green (to punish the players who hit "bad" tee shots), etc.  In fact the short par-4's are supposed to be equalizing holes where the B player can still make par or birdie, and the A player HAS TO make birdie to keep his advantage.  And on a good drive and pitch hole it's not so easy to make birdie when you think you have to, as several guys proved yesterday.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

In that vein, do you think the primary defense of a drive and pitch par 4 should be the green complex.  A la #3 at Augusta.  And not necessarily the fairway width or shape?

[Scott Stearns]

anybody who thinks the 14th is a "5w PW" should be compelled to take a bucket down to the drive zone and hit a few shots

sure, its a short shot.  but the back hole location is canted to the water and theres a bunker left.  anything long leaves a downhill pitch.

player has two options

1-go left and maybe long-bring the bunker into play.  oh, by the way, if the ball spins too much you're off the green right, a la tiger.

2-go at the flag, maybe long.  as i said, the pitch back is slippery, and getting to the hole, without going over or spinning it back off the green, is hard.  go even a yard right and, well.....

this should be an easy shot, but go hit it during a round.  it'll get in your head.

ther back bunker has been ranked as one of the scariest shots on tour--i watched a tour player hit 6 shots out of that bunker and only one held the green

[BCrosby]

Scott -

I think you missed the point that several of us iconoclasts are trying to make. It's not that the PW second is an easy shot. It's not. It's that there are no interesting, non-crazy shot choices from the tee. And, in the spirit of trying to be constructive, we offered a couple of simple changes to the hole that would create some choices.

Nor should that criticism of the 14th MV be understood to suggest that undrivable 325 yard holes must somehow always be bad holes.

Bob

[Andy Troeger]

First of all, the 14th at Muirfield Village is 360 yards from the back and was built 20+ years ago--it wasn't built to be a drivable par four. Since its possible that tee didn't originally exist even 335 wasn't a drivable par four until the last 5-10 years. That it can still stand up to the professional golfer who "can" bomb the ball down in front of the green speaks to its greatness IMO. There are a lot more options on golf holes than just club selection--on this hole they come with the second shot and the variety of pin locations that can change the player's thought process from the fairway.

I also like the somewhat similar 7th at Wolf Run--which has a much smaller green. I think the 14th at Muirfield Village is the better of the two, but more of these types of holes would make for much more interesting courses instead of 460 yard par fours one after the other.

I'm with Kenny--its one of the best (if not the best) holes on a wonderful golf course.

[BCrosby]

Andy -

Creating a more interesting tee shot at the 14th does not equal making sure some people try to drive the green.

Bob

[Andy Troeger]

Bob,
Given that I think the hole is absolutely terrific as is, I guess then my question is "Why bother?" (Which you've already answered, I just don't agree!) 

I'm not going to be able to explain my rationale any better than Tom Doak and others already have in this case--so I'll just leave it at that.

[Ross Tuddenham]

In his book the spirit of St Andrews Mackenzie mentions that he thinks there should be no penalty for hitting the ball too far.  His reasoning is that a long drive is a well hit shot and not brute force.  So he thinks that players with good timing and rhythm should be rewarded.

"long driving is not a crime - it is a virtue and is more frequently achieved by skill and grace of motion than by mere brute force"

But is it really such a virtue these days given the level of technological aid the player receives?

I do not think it is and that is why although a traditional view that may of been held by the likes of Mackenzie I am not sure the big booming drive is the skilled shot it once was.  So why not test different sets of skills like a short iron/wedge to a trickier green complex?

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