[Dan_Lucas]

Jason

Your dollar awaits your return.

[Dan_Lucas]

Tyler

The bowl greens are the only ones with drainage underneath. The only problem we have is on the front of #4. That drain must have gotten silted over during construction. Once or twice a year we have to punch some holes in it with a piece of 1/2" re-rod to facilitate drainage.

Bentgrass is much more hardy under ice than poa annua. We haven't had any issues to this point.

[George Freeman]

Do we know who posted the low round of the weekend?

I'll submit George Freeman who claims to have made it around in 71 swings.

* From the blue tees (not the tips)

[Tyler Kearns]

There were lots of good players there.  Schmidt, Kennedy, and Fry can all play.  Kearns is a 2.  I think there were several other sticks in the field.

John,

I'm was a 2 (handicapped doubled to 4 after posting weekend scores), but played like a 12!! I did manage a 78 on the Sunday morning game to save face.
71, good round George!!

TK

[JC Jones]

Do we know who posted the low round of the weekend?

I'll submit George Freeman who claims to have made it around in 71 swings.

* From the blue tees (not the tips)

Either way its a great score.  Especially with Lucas there putting the pressure on!

[Lyne Morrison]

''The bowl greens are the only ones with drainage underneath."


Dan - could I ask you to elaborate further on the greens profile? what is the sub-base material?

With thanks - Lyne

[Adam Clayman]

And while we are getting all geeky...

Are you having any issues with the bent grass spreading off the greens, Dan?

[Dan_Lucas]

Lyne

Greens base is native. Greens were welled out to a 12" depth and filled with a mix of 90% sand/10% topsoil. Drainage was installed under the bowl greens and a couple others that had some pockets of heavier soils under them.

Adam

Yes there is some bentgrass "creeping" out from the greens. The approach areas are our biggest problem keeping fescue. The greens get watered and fertilized a lot more than the fairways so in the fescue areas that are hit with the greens fert. and irrigation the fescue loses it's competitive advantage over the poa and bent.

[JC Jones]

Dan or Mike:

Was there ever any discussion of using fescue on the greens or is it not a possibility in MI?  And also, when you say "welled" out to 12," what do you mean?

Do you shape the green and then put 12" of sand/topsoil on top in order to maintain the contours or do you shape the green and then take 12" off the top and replace with sand/topsoil.  I'm having a hard time envisioning the process while still leaving the green contours untouched.

[David Neveux]

What a wonderful weekend we had up North !!  Great Weather Great Golf and most importantly Great People !!! 

A big thanks to everyone who was involved in making this trip happen including but not limited to Devries, Craig, Mark, and Bruce up at Greywalls and Joe H at The Mines, and Dan, David, Brian, Justin, John et al at Kingsley.  Everyone was made to feel like we were members at Augusta, and the set-up / maintenance at both golf courses are examples to be followed by anyone in the business. 

Personally, I've been to both golf courses several times, and It's always such a treat to return.  I know the maiden voyage always gets a lot of attention and It's always fun to hear peoples first impressions.  At these two clubs there's always something new to learn and see, and I cannot wait till my next visit. 

Greywalls to me is a very magical place.  It's a very natural setting that is extremely rugged and very dramatic at points.  Its EXCITING GOLF but its not limited to an elevated tee shot or a great vista, its exciting on a smaller scale as well, from the green sites to the contours found within.  There isn't a dull shot on the property (nor is there at Kingsley) and thats what makes people love to play.  I could go on and on, but the one highlight of our day here had to be No. 17 during the morning wave when John Mayhugh made a 1 with Devries and company lurking on the 18th box.  That is the first time I've witnessed an ace, and boy was it exciting!!!  Well done John, thanks for the lunch.  I wish I could have made the Heritage course tour, I've always been curious to see it, but have never wanted to give up a chance at Greywalls.  Maybe next time, MAYBE!!

I also have a deep love for Marquette.  What a great town.  The people are great and the beer is always cold.  I had a great Friday evening with some extended family, and the band at the Up Front, called "the back forty" was excellent.  For those who've not had a chance to see the course due to it's location, I urge you to go.  There are several great restaurants and bars to keep you interested while you're away from the course.  It's a great place to spend a weekend. 

What can I say about the Kingsley Club that hasn't already been mentioned?  The golf course is phenonmenal.  One day, hopefully, I will be a member here.  I cannot imagine a more fun golf course to play in competition.  I would say that the variety, and the options available to the player here are unlike 90% of the courses I've played.  I was happy to see the wind blow on day 2, it really adds some spice to whats going on.  The property, particularly on the front nine is among the best I've seen and Mike did a great job finding some truly remarkable holes.  The Kingsley Club is what a golf club should be, a very unpretentious clubhouse with just enough space for some under armour, a box of balls, and a cooler stocked with beer.  It keeps the focus on the golf, exactly where it should be.

Most of the staff at both clubs have been there from my first visit, and I can say as a non-member each time I've never met more genuinely good people.  Always interested in whats happening with you, how your game is, and what can they do to make sure your experience at there club is first rate.  Great Job guys, keep it up. 

Aside from the golf it was a pleasure getting to play and meet some new people.  My round with Joe, John, and Peter was a blast, even though it was by far the worst round I'd played at Kingsley ever.  WE STILL HAD FUN, although I drove it into the garbage on every hole on the front.  Hit both 2 and 5 in regulation (or under-regulation see 2 as the worlds shortest par 4/5) and would have hit one stiff on 9 if i didn't hit the old mistake 6 (thought I was hitting 9 Iron) which ended up near the parking lot.  It's always fun to play with Devries, and I think we would have won the match if Bruce wouldn't have told me I needed to carry my approach to 16 185 as I was mid take away   Mike you are a PLAYER !!! Got to meet and play with double barky sparky who is practically my next door neighbor and a great guy.  We had another great match late Sunday, when Dan Lucas was kind enough to join and take my money, thanks Dan.  I always love playing these courses with guys who are / were or both involved in not only the building but maintaining the golf course.  For an amatuer GC design junky, I love to hear the professional prospecitve.  It was great to see my buddy Bill Steele, Bill lets get together soon!!  It was equally great just meeting and greeting others who share the same passion.  I like John Kirk wish there would have been a little more time to socialize, and a chance for everyone to kind of introduce themselves, but the way those mosquito's started nibbling on me towards the end, I'm not sure how much more I could have taken. 

WHAT IS THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ANNUAL GET TOGETHER?  METHINKS THIS WOULD BE A COOL EVENT, WITH MAYBE SOME SORT OF RYDER CUP COMPETITION. 

I would like to propose some questions for everyone

What was your favorite hole and why?
What was your favorite green and why?
What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
What was your favorite driving hole?  Favorite Approach?
Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?

For those who played both GW and KC, which par 5 opener did you prefer? 

For Mike, can you talk a little bit about the Par 5 openers at both KC and GW.  Both to me are great ways to introduce the player to the round.  They both seem to be like mirror opposites to me.  Do you like the idea of a Par 5 start, or was that just what was there and the best way to get from point A-B? 

I know you don't really like to think about the qualities of one individual hole, but rather in a strech of holes.  For each course do you have a favorite stretch of holes or an individual hole where you can really say this one is my favorite?  How about a favorite green?  Favorite approach? 

Joe H and I had a pretty good discussion about the changes to number 17, what are your thoughts on how it turned out?  Can you forsee any other tweaks to the current hole? Or other holes in the near future? 

Can you comment on how important, or rather how great it is to have a guy like Dan Lucas who was there from start to finish and is still there today.  What kind of synergy does that create and how is it different from maybe other projects you've done and this isn't the case? 

Thanks for a great weekend to everyone who was there.  Not only did I meet a lot of wonderful people, I learned a lot about GCA (as I always do, but it was complimented by a bunch of minds greater than mine) I learned a lot about the weaknesses in my game and most importantly I learned a lot about myself as a person.  Lets try and do it again next year, sincerely,

NEV

[Jon Heise]

Dave, yeah, good times Saturday.  Had a tough time keeping my driver anywhere near where your 3w was landing...

Good post too, some thoughtful questions, so I'll bite.  And I'll mention Greywalls in my responses too.  Though its a Kingsley thread, I will confess to preferring Greywalls.  Its like asking "do you like that smokin' hot blonde or the smokin' hot brunette better?"

What was your favorite hole and why?
KC: 16.  It can play long or short.  You can hit it left, right, a little over, or run it up.  The ball is NOT going to stay on the spot you land it, so you have to imagine what it'll do.  For Sunday's pin, I was short of the green and aimed my 2nd shot off the green, up the hill on the right.  Left me a decent par putt to miss.  COOL.

GW: 11.  Like a giant "Plinko" game.  Off the tee, you'll land in a big ass bunker, on a big ass hill, or in a big ass valley.  Really nothing more.  It's almost a random result if you just gripped it and ripped it out there, then you have wildly different and challenging approach shots.  Ive had a couple birdie putts on that green where I aimed 30' away from the pin and got it close.  Some I even did intentionally.


What was your favorite green and why?
KC: 6.  Not a super tough driving hole, but just looking at that green- with infinity beyond it- presents a real challenge.  Though if you hit it, you've got a nice look at a bird.

GW: 7.  Huge.  No bunkers.  Huge movement, an insane amount of pins out there.  Ive hit anywhere from 3 iron to 9 iron into that hole, and the makes you think about how youre going to roll it on, fly it on, etc.


What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
KC: 3-4-5-6.  A very cool walk along those holes.  A couple punchbowl greens that can leave you with some nice putts, then a couple upside down ones that totally test that putter.  Fairways have safe areas, then also areas you absolutely must avoid.  Also a nice breather after 1 and 2, then before 7-9.

GW:  8-9-10-11.  From two perfectly executed to get to the green on 8, the insane view of 9 (a hole which after nearly 8 or 9 plays I still have no idea where in the fairway to put my ball...), the short "come and get me if you dare" 10th, and the randomness of 11, its probably my fave 4 in a row in golf.  4 wildly different holes, amazing scenery.  LOVE IT.

 
What was your favorite driving hole?
KC: 13.  Duh.
GW: 1.  Duh.


Favorite Approach?
KC: Probably now, 15.  I hit some great slappy fade 3, 4 irons onto that green last weekend.  Its a great challenge.  Pulling off the long iron approach shot is a really satisfying feeling, especially late in a round.

GW:  Maybe 18.  My first round, I played w/ a member.  He absolutely hated it.  Was cursing Mike the entire hole.  "you could put a f'ing Walmart parking lot on that green..."  I liked it from the start.  Pump a nice drive out there, and youre set up with a real shot at the green, usually from a flat spot.  That's what I like.  Forget the listed distance.  Forget its a par 5.  (awesome visual btw, grab a camera, turn around and look back up the hill when you get to the bottom...)  After you hit that drive, your thoughts can get seriously aggressive.  HOW MUCH CAN I TAKE??!?!  A 3 is realistic out there, even if your name isnt Tiger.  Or Nev.  Sure, you're not going to make many bogies, but the penalty comes by not going after that bird...

Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?
#2.  I havent even come close to a GIR at #9...

For those who played both GW and KC, which par 5 opener did you prefer? 
Again, Greywalls.  A big downhiller on the first teeball just makes a guy feel good.  Especially one as pretty as that.



I'd love to see an annual get together in Michigan or near, even if its a smaller size than at KC.


Jon

[George Freeman]

What was your favorite hole and why?
GW: #7.  It has is all: the views, the decisions off the tee, a million ways to get the ball to the green, movement, an awesome green, etc
KC: This is tough...#4.  The incredibly choppy fairway combined with that awesome green make this my fav at KC.  Hard to get in real trouble off the tee, but to be in the perfect spot you need to hit a very exact shot.  The green is just so much fun.  Something like 60 yards long with back- and side-boards all over the place and a thousand pin placements.

What was your favorite green and why?
GW: Probably #11.  The way it sits between the mounding and bunkers is awesome.  The movement is really cool too.
KC: I'd have to go with #13.  If you've seen it you know why; if you haven't seen it, it's hard to explain

What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
GW: 4-7.  Unlike anything I have ever seen.  This stretch is so unique, beautiful, and fun to play.
KC: 1-4. A little bit of everything.  All the movement of those holes really does it for me.

What was your favorite driving hole?  Favorite Approach?
Driving:
GW: #11.  Tons of room out there but there is so much variety in lies, and lines to and views of the green.  A ball 5 ft from another could have a COMPLETELY different approach.  I love that randomness.
KC: #12 or #14.  Love watching a ball fall down to the 12th fairway bouncing and kicking everywhere.  Love the constricted view off the 14th tee which really makes you want to hit left when there is a ton of room over the bunkers.
Approach:
GW: #2 or #9. #2 is great b/c you can play the ball anywhere in a 40 yd sideways strip and still feed the ball down to the lower righthand side of the green.  #9 is awesome b/c that green seems to be perched on the edge of the world.  Hopefully you used your head off the tee and have a good angle in.
KC: #6. Love the deception on this approach.  The more you play the hole, the scarier this shot becomes.  There is just so much stuff hidden from view on that approach.  Sensory overload without actually seeing a thing...awesome.   
 
Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?
Definitely #9.  I have been much more successful with #9 in my career at KC.  I feel like #9 is an easier green to hit if you're only trying to hit the green and not caring about the pin. Something about the way #2 is just perched there with falloffs on every side gets me (almost) every time.  I've had more than a couple 7s on #2.  Neither are easy pars.

For those who played both GW and KC, which par 5 opener did you prefer?
This is a hard question b/c they are both really cool opening holes.  Both drives are fantastic; I like the second shot at GW better than KC; I like the green at KC better than GW.  I honestly don't think I could pick one over the other...

[Tyler Kearns]

Dave,

I'll tackle the easy one first,

For $1,000,000, I'll take my chances with No. 2. I played No. 2 in -1 over 3 rounds, and was a humbling +4 over the same period on No.9. Both very demanding shots where a timid swing will be punished. I could be swayed if we played No. 9 from the tees directly behind 8 green and the pin is front left (that is one accessible pin, I think!).

I need to think harder about those other questions.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Dan or Mike:

Was there ever any discussion of using fescue on the greens or is it not a possibility in MI?  And also, when you say "welled" out to 12," what do you mean?

Do you shape the green and then put 12" of sand/topsoil on top in order to maintain the contours or do you shape the green and then take 12" off the top and replace with sand/topsoil.  I'm having a hard time envisioning the process while still leaving the green contours untouched.

Jason,

Generally speaking, greens are shaped out of native material (Kingsley) or fill material hauled to the green site. After the green is shaped, it is excavated ("welled out") to a depth of 12" (Kinglsey) or 16" (USGA greens construction). The subgrade can be tweaked at this point, as it will mimic the final putting surface.  Subgrade drainage is installed and then a uniform layer of greens mix is added, forming the final contour of the green.

TK

[JC Jones]

Dan or Mike:

Was there ever any discussion of using fescue on the greens or is it not a possibility in MI?  And also, when you say "welled" out to 12," what do you mean?

Do you shape the green and then put 12" of sand/topsoil on top in order to maintain the contours or do you shape the green and then take 12" off the top and replace with sand/topsoil.  I'm having a hard time envisioning the process while still leaving the green contours untouched.

Jason,

Generally speaking, greens are shaped out of native material (Kingsley) or fill material hauled to the green site. After the green is shaped, it is excavated ("welled out") to a depth of 12" (Kinglsey) or 16" (USGA greens construction). The subgrade can be tweaked at this point, as it will mimic the final putting surface.  Subgrade drainage is installed and then a uniform layer of greens mix is added, forming the final contour of the green.

TK

I get it now.  Thanks Tyler.

[Matt_Ward]

Enjoy reading all the posts and comments.

I still laugh out loud that Digest has the course as the 13th best in all of MI.

Frankly, that's simply ignorance -- should I say -- stupidity at its finest !

Kingsley is indeed one of the game's great places to play.

[JC Jones]

Enjoy reading all the posts and comments.

I still laugh out loud that Digest has the course as the 13th best in all of MI.

Frankly, that's simply ignorance -- should I say -- stupidity at its finest !

Kingsley is indeed one of the game's great places to play.

As someone earlier in this thread said, there cant be 50 courses in the US better than Kingsley.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Agreed.

I've played my fair share of layouts throughout the USA and it astounds me how many pubs don't see what Kingsley provides. Just a great site -- blessed with fantastic people / staff and some of the most fun holes one can play.

When I look at the Digest top 50 as it stands now -- there are more than a few that should be rated towards the end of the line or not at all.

Any rating that doesn't have Kingsley in a top 100 at the VERY least is not worth the paper it's printed.

[George Freeman]

Matt (and everyone else),

I would be interested in reading your responses to Dave Neveux's questions, which I highlighted (and answered) in post #91.  If you haven't played Greywalls 1) go play it! and 2) negate the GW specific questions.

Appreciate it.

Cheers,

George

[JC Jones]

Matt (and everyone else),

I would be interested in reading your responses to Dave Neveux's questions, which I highlighted (and answered) in post #91.  If you haven't played Greywalls 1) go play it! and 2) negate the GW specific questions.

Appreciate it.

Cheers,

George

well, aren't we demanding.  GMAT classes must be going well......jeesh.

[JC Jones]

What was your favorite hole and why?
GW: #5.  Despite being the easiest par on the course....just kidding.  I think #9 is as good as it gets for me.  Options off of the tee that have direct effect on the approach.  Uphill approach to a green that looks like its sitting on top of the world.  To me, it has a similar "feel" to #17 at CD.
KC: I cant narrow it down to one favorite hole.  I really enjoy #13 for obvious reasons.  I will echo George in saying #4 is REALLY good.  Wide open fairway with Position A being the size of a dime.  Awesome green with tons of pin positions and I saw everything from a lob wedge to a putter used to get at the green.  A hole with endless ways to play it. 

What was your favorite green and why?
GW: #17 or, dare I say it, #14.  Both of these greens have great movement and if they aren't approached correctly result in a very difficult pitch/chip/putt to get back on the surface.
KC: I really like both #1 and #18.  Despite being "bowl" greens, there are some extremely tricky putts on those greens.  Especially the front pin on #18 that appears to break one way but actually breaks another.  Dan Lucas was surprised a putt of mine broke left when it should have broken right (into the bowl).  To which he responded along the lines of "f'ing DeVries"

What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
GW: I agree that 4-7 are amazing but I'd also go with 8-11 and 11-14.  I happen to really like the holes at GW that are down on the sand.
KC: 1-13 and 18.  Great holes of golf with an unbelievable number of options that I could never tire of playing them.

What was your favorite driving hole?  Favorite Approach?
Driving:
GW: #7 bombs AWAAAAYYYY.
KC: #18.  Can be played up the right side (up high) providing a better approach to the left side of the green or to the left (down low) to provide a better angle to the back right (even though its up hill).
Approach:
GW: I like #9 because of how intimidating it is (see above) or #10 because an approach played from the wrong side of the fairway is dead because of the rock out-cropping on the right side.
KC: #8.  Hard to think of an approach to a par 4 at Kingsley that requires more precision than this.  Anything on the right 1/3 of the green is falling off right and to go left you have to play over the bunker.  Just a hard shot on a short hole.
 
Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?
#9.  I cant mentally commit to a shot on #2.  Not yet.

For those who played both GW and KC, which par 5 opener did you prefer?
I think KC gets the not because of the 3rd shot and the green.  Neither of these par 5s are the strongest on their respective courses but they are open enough off the drive to be great opening holes.  A well placed drive on either of them leads to a relatively uninteresting second shot (unless you are Nev and can stripe a 3 wood to 7 feet)....

[Steve Lang]

   and to boot, we received a hand written thank you note from Brian for coming to TKC for the GCA event..  the ultimate personal touch.

Brian, You're Welcome..  and if you're ever in the Houston area - please get a hold of us to play The WCC and enjoy a little TX hospitality.. 

[Tim Bert]

I've only played Kingsley...

What was your favorite hole and why?
KC: Tie - #6, #8, #12, #13, #15, and #16.  Why?  Because they are all fabulous and unique in their own way.  Some of the others are close.

What was your favorite green and why?
KC: It's too easy and predictable to simply go with #13, though I do think it is the most interesting.  I prefer to think of Kingsley in terms of spectacular green complexes as opposed to simply great greens.  If you let me include the surrounds, then I switch from #13 to #3, #8, #15, and #16.

What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
KC: 1-5, 6-8, or 12-16.  I'm not adding much value or limiting myself this evening.  

What was your favorite driving hole?  Favorite Approach?Driving:
KC: #12
 
Approach:
KC: #4, #8, and #15.  Or maybe the second shot on #9.  
 
Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?
If you are treating both as a par 3, then I'll take #2 without a doubt.  If you are treating #9 as a par 5, then I'll take #2 without a doubt.

[George Freeman]

Bump.  I would be interested to see some more answers to Nev's questions!  Have at it!

[John Mayhugh]

Bump.  I would be interested to see some more answers to Nev's questions!  Have at it!

My attempt:
What was your favorite hole and why?
KC: 16.  Using the ground to try to get the ball near the hole.  I looked forward to that hole every round.

GW: 17.   I averaged par on that hole!

What was your favorite green and why?
KC: 13.    I wish photos could capture how much is going on there.  So much movement and potential variety of hole locations.  I also think that the placement of the hole really dictates smart play off the tee.

GW: 7.   The transition from the wild rolling fairway to the green looks so natural.

What was your favorite stretch of holes and why?
KC: 1-4.  If you don’t say holy sh** at least twice, you must not be breathing.  A little bit of everything to kick off the round. 

GW:  Probably 15-18.  The wild fairway on the 18th is reason enough. 
 
What was your favorite driving hole?
KC: 13.  So many choices.  But I really love the tee shot on so many of the holes.  The most challenging one is 6.

GW: 11.  All those bunker and rolls in the fairway make me think that Devries guy is evil.

Favorite Approach?
KC:  Probably 13 because of the sheer fear factor, but the third shot to 15 is also very interesting.

GW:  Maybe 2.  Aim left!

Your have to make par for 1,000,000 USD,  No. 2 or No. 9 at KC?
Tough question.  I think it’s probably easier to make par on 9.  Worth noting that if the question was for bogey or better, I might pick 2. 

For those who played both GW and KC, which par 5 opener did you prefer? 
Kingsley.  I love extreme width combined with the bunker complex in the middle of the fairway that forces one to make his first choice of the day.  I really love the look of this hole.

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