Before we leave Bethpage...

[Chuck Brown]

Personally, under the dreadful weather conditions this year, Bethpage Black impressed me even more than in 2002.  I'd like to make it a destination someday soon.  That would probably mean playing more than one of the Bethpage courses.

My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?

Black ~
Red ~
Blue ~
Green ~
Yellow ~

Which ones are Tillinghast designs?  What is the provenance of the others?
 

[Jason Connor]

I've only played 2, Black twice and Yellow once.  Both were in August 2002 shortly after the previous Open.

I'd give Black a 10 with the understanding of just how high a rating that is.  I enjoyed it as much as if not more than I enjoyed my day at Oakmont.

I'd give Yellow a 6: A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

[Kyle Harris]

My rankings:

Red
Black
Green/Yellow
Blue

I think the Red is better than the Black and is definitely worth a see. More interesting greens with more varied tee shots. Don't listen to Flemma, he couldn't find a line of charm given Max Behr. and all the other annoying smilies that indicate being facetious.

Red is all Tillinghast. Green is Tillinghast on 1 and 18, the rest Dev Emmet with some Tillie bunkering (ie on 4).

Yellow is Tillinghast on 10-14 and then a few Tillie greens like 8 are used in different forms. The rest is Alfred Tull. The 10 through 14 stretch on the Yellow is as good as anything in the Park and includes the Reef Hole 12th and is worth a look. It's a great second 18 for the day, especially if you've already played Black. 

The Blue is last on my list but it has the better Tull holes, IMO. However, the par 3s are the same high point to high point par 3s and both closing holes are pretty mundane. Tillinghast holes are 13-16 I believe.

Blue 12 is a great Par 5.

Blue and Yellow were split from the Old Blue in the 1950s to add 18 holes. The 18 were done by Alfred Tull.

[Mike Sweeney]

[My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?

Black ~ 8 - #18 keeps it from a 10, good but not great greens keep it from a 9, if they widen the fairways it is an 8.5. Top 10 for sure but not Top 5 on Long Island.
Red ~ 6 - a very good course but somewhat one dimesional (390-430 par 4's). I broke 80 there for the first time so I have a soft spot for it. Perfect second course for US Amateur. If Kyle can find one person that supports his view of Black vs Red, I will pay his 2010 contribution to GCA.com.
Blue ~ 4 - Just played it once and only because they closed The Red and The Black.
Green ~ have not played
Yellow ~ have not played

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Will comment on the point of this thread -- you did say BB is not top five on LI for you. Please let me know what you have above it? I don't doubt the qualities of Shinnecock Hills, NGLA, Friar's Head and even Sebonack. But if you have another layout that goes beyond BB please provide and prepare to support your belief. If you argue the point for GCGC then I think you are elevating a fine layout a bit much.

I do agree with your comments on widening the fairways at BB for regular play and for a better hole at #18.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt,

I have been told by Tom Doak, now Matt Ward and others that my love of Piping Rock is not rational, but I am sticking with it!

Better greens, a diversity of looks (Pine Valley in spots, lots of MacRaynor obviously and I like the flat holes around the polo field) and for the time being a better conditioning/set-up for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I too like Piping Rock -- ditto a case for those who enjoy The Creek and Engineers, et al of this type. I would lump all of the aforementioned courses as solid member's courses -- not at the high caliber for championship play -- see the last line Doak uses when mentioning Shinnecock in "Confidential Guide." Be curious to your take on that line and what it means to you -- if anything.

Clearly you have a desire to elevate PR because of your own self interest (e.g. as it relates to your game). Is BB simply too demanding for you to consider it?

[Mike Sweeney]

not at the high caliber for championship play

Matt,

When my wife allows me to spend the 5 months a year on Mr Moore's couch in Maine ( the only requirement to enter the Maine Amateur !) I will get back to you on my championship views. 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

[My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?

Black ~ 8 - #18 keeps it from a 10, good but not great greens keep it from a 9, if they widen the fairways it is an 8.5. Top 10 for sure but not Top 5 on Long Island.
Red ~ 6 - a very good course but somewhat one dimesional (390-430 par 4's). I broke 80 there for the first time so I have a soft spot for it. Perfect second course for US Amateur. If Kyle can find one person that supports his view of Black vs Red, I will pay his 2010 contribution to GCA.com.
Blue ~ 4 - Just played it once and only because they closed The Red and The Black.
Green ~ have not played
Yellow ~ have not played

Mike-

  To answer your question, and to not get side-tracked with the ratings bs:

  I really like the Red as well, like Kyle, and probably more than the Black.  (Why?  Because, you can have fun on the Red, even if you're not playing at the top of your game.  Black isn't fun, nor is it meant to be, I guess). 

I also wouldn't say it's one dimensional--you have different feels for different parts of the course.  1 is a good opener--a hard opener--and feels kind of open.  2 and 3 are fun holes through a wooded area, right around 400 yds each.  4 is a great par 3-but don't pull it!  5 is interesting-the trees on the right make you play the angles, going center to left center for the best angle to the green.  The second shot isn't anything special, just really a layup w/o a good drive. 
6 is great-the valley on the left is death, but how far right do you go? 
7 is a decent par 3-more of a transition hole to the stretch of 8-15 which are more "open" in feel (think, Hempstead Plain).  8 has a really good green, and 9 is a great hole.  10 and 11 are good holes, 12 would possibly be more fun if played at 215-230 yds.
13 is awesome-the island bunker, split fairway, hard green to hit.  14 and 15 are brutes but not impossible-15 the better of the two.
16 goes back into the trees a little bit more.  Good par 5.  17 is a decent par 3-nothing exciting, but it's not bad.  Generally plays similar yardage to 7.  18 is perfect-great tee shot, second shot and green site. 

[Kyle Harris]

Mike Sweeney,

The question I have to ask is "When was the last time you played Bethpage Red?" From which tees?

I can't think of many golf courses with tee shots that have a almost 45 degree angle of attack off the tee like a good number of the middle holes of BP Red.

The Red is also one of those rare courses that is BETTER if you play it just a bit longer than your typical tee. For me, that's around 7000-7100.

[Matt_Ward]

Clearly people can have their own opinions but having played all the courses at BB -- many of them a vast number of times over the spread of 30+ years I can't in any fashion see any course beyond the Black as the flagship course of the complex.

The issue for many people -- particularly those who are double digit handicaps -- is that the Black REQUIRES an airtight tee game on a consistent basis. Yes, the Red has its spots where it is challenging but the overall terrain for the Black -- keep in mind the multiple times you need to hit long and accurate approach shot as well.

The Black is the flip side of what many people here on GCA are enamored with -- that is -- the tee game is central to success and the wherwithal to have heavily contoured greens and chipping areas is far less so -- although BB does have them in about one-third of the holes.

Let me give a quick example -- the #1 hole at the Red is a more daunting challenge for the double digit handicapper who can't carry the ball far enough -- either on the drive or approach -- for 80% of people it's a short par-5. The 1st at BB is really far easier for such a player because although they likely won't reach the green in regulation the wherewithal to get to the green in three blows is much more within their range. For the top player the 1st at BB requires a skilled cut shot off the tee -- and then a nicely judged approach shot to a green with two distinct levels.

The Red has made major strides and would serve well as a second course for a US Amateur on-site qualifying. But make no mistake about it -- the Black is the dog here -- not the tail.

The Black can be fun proviides those playing it be brutally honest about their limitations and play with that in mind. Failure to do that will result in a beating far greater than a young Mike Tyson used to deliver to his scared opponents.

[Sam Maryland]

I support Kyle, and also think Red is a better course than Black.  Clearly it's a personal opinion and both are for sure exceptional courses...really a case of 1 an 1a.  The absolute degree of difficulty on Black is higher, no doubt, but I don't necessarily think that's any sort of clincher. 

I like Red better because I believe it's more fair, and fun.  I love the parkland nature of the layout where you go out, and come back.  You never cross a road, or see a house, and there's basically no OB on the whole course.  If one doesn't find it hard enough, just keep on moving back, at over 7100yds and par 70 it will challenge anyone.  I also believe the course could easily be prepared to hold a tour event, no problem.

I love playing them both but if forced to choose one to play every day for the rest of my life I'd definitely take Red.

Our group has played them all enough at this point that we are ambivilent between the Red, Black and Green courses, they are all great.  Well, I guess we aren't truly ambivilent, given the choice we'd take Red or Black over Green almost every time....my point is we are perfectly happy to play any of the three.

[Kyle Harris]

For me, the allure of the Red is with tee shots such as the 9th:



The golfer has line of attack options anywhere between the last 1/8th of either side of the picture. Naturally, the further left one goes the more junk the golfer must contend with, but when playing from the "little bit further tee" the angle the golfer must attack and find becomes quite compelling with all the junk in the middle of the picture. The further right the tee shot is placed, the longer the shot into the well-guarded green.

There is so much angle here that the difference is between an 8-iron and a 3-wood. Also, as is apparent in the picture, these options are not "clear" to the golfer's eye, but instead the golfer is scanning back and forth looking for both the optimum line and angle of attack.

Here is Matt Ward's driveable short par 4 that is missing from the Black Course.

Red 6th:



This is from maybe 50 yards front right of the tee - the green is blocked by trees from the tee, but the carry is 280 yards.

[Mike Sweeney]

My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?
 

Bethpage Red Lovers,

Perhaps you can fill in your Doak Scale ratings as per Chuck's request. Doak Scale and "prefer to play" are two separate things in my mind. Tom's scale was built for the concept of the Nomadic golfer who probably will only be in a specific area for maybe one lifetime trip. At the Jersey Shore, I prefer to play Hidden Creek and ACCC over Galloway. However if my main man FatBaldyDrummer is coming in from Scotland for a one time play, I would send him to Galloway. He may lose a few balls, but he gets to see one of the best Fazio courses in the country.

Doak Scale:

6. A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

Interesting observation about the 6th on Red being a "drivable par-4"; I hate to disagree with you, but it isn't.

Now I will agree that is has BECOME one because of the increase in distance through technology, but it was not designed as a drivable par-4. Holes such as the 10th at Westchester and the great 10th at Riviera were, and that is why the 5th of the original Blue, what is now the 12th on the Yellow, is so important historically. It is the only known Tilly Reef hole that was designed to be a drivable par-4.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?
 

Bethpage Red Lovers,

Perhaps you can fill in your Doak Scale ratings as per Chuck's request. Doak Scale and "prefer to play" are two separate things in my mind. Tom's scale was built for the concept of the Nomadic golfer who probably will only be in a specific area for maybe one lifetime trip. At the Jersey Shore, I prefer to play Hidden Creek and ACCC over Galloway. However if my main man FatBaldyDrummer is coming in from Scotland for a one time play, I would send him to Galloway. He may lose a few balls, but he gets to see one of the best Fazio courses in the country.

Doak Scale:

6. A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

Mike Sweeney-

  It's a 6.5 or a 7.  The quality of golf on LI is so good it couldn't be an 8 (assuming, the Doak Scale lumps publics and privates together). 

[Sean_A]

My question for GCA members who have been there; how do the other Bethpage courses rate on, say, our old favorite Doak Scale?
 

Bethpage Red Lovers,

Perhaps you can fill in your Doak Scale ratings as per Chuck's request. Doak Scale and "prefer to play" are two separate things in my mind. Tom's scale was built for the concept of the Nomadic golfer who probably will only be in a specific area for maybe one lifetime trip. At the Jersey Shore, I prefer to play Hidden Creek and ACCC over Galloway. However if my main man FatBaldyDrummer is coming in from Scotland for a one time play, I would send him to Galloway. He may lose a few balls, but he gets to see one of the best Fazio courses in the country.

Doak Scale:

6. A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

Here here!  I want to see folks put numbers where their mouth is.  As I have been through this exercise many times with profiling GB&I courses and trying to give folks an idea of how worthwhile these are for the traveler, I often find myself rating courses higher than ones not so far away that I prefer.  It just happened with Portrush.  I prefer the Valley Links to the Dunluce, but I couldn't rate the Valley higher on any sort of Doak scale.  

Doug - make the choice, 6 or 7 for Red?

Ciao    

[Phil_the_Author]

Doug,

I'm puzzledby your statement about the Red. "It's a 6.5 or a 7.  The quality of golf on LI is so good it couldn't be an 8" By that logic the LACK of quality courses in an area would have to elevate some course ratings to a much higher one, but isn't the point of the Doak scale to define a course regardless of where it is located and what other courses are in the same area?

If you think the Red is an 8 it's an 8, or a 7 a7 or a 6.5 a 6.5. Just because Long Island has a dearth of great courses shouldn't lessen what the Red IS...

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

I'm puzzledby your statement about the Red. "It's a 6.5 or a 7.  The quality of golf on LI is so good it couldn't be an 8" By that logic the LACK of quality courses in an area would have to elevate some course ratings to a much higher one, but isn't the point of the Doak scale to define a course regardless of where it is located and what other courses are in the same area?

If you think the Red is an 8 it's an 8, or a 7 a7 or a 6.5 a 6.5. Just because Long Island has a dearth of great courses shouldn't lessen what the Red IS...

It's a Doak 8, I'll say it. And I put the Black at Doak 8 too.

Phil,

The fact still remains the green is 280 yards from the tee. Whether or not the hole was designed to be driveable does not matter, taking out the big stick and bombing it over the trees is a viable option for that type of player.

Furthermore, the further one looks to hit the tee shot, the more the player must take the left side of the hole into consideration and possibly hitting it through the fairway or leaving it short of the corner - both of which leave tricky approaches to a severe green.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

What I meant is that I view holes that are designed to be drivable par-4's much differently than those short ones that have become drivable due to advances in technology. The reason is because the entrances and surrounds are usually much different and those specifically designed that way work better as such... IMO!

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

What I meant is that I view holes that are designed to be drivable par-4's much differently than those short ones that have become drivable due to advances in technology. The reason is because the entrances and surrounds are usually much different and those specifically designed that way work better as such... IMO!

I can understand that.

Perhaps you would know this - were the trees always on the inside corner of the dogleg? The green slopes directly at the tee and the further one plays outside the dogleg, the more the green slopes from left to right.

Did Tillinghast maybe use the green's general slope to entice the golfer into playing toward the green and toward the broken ground left of the hole?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,

I'm puzzledby your statement about the Red. "It's a 6.5 or a 7.  The quality of golf on LI is so good it couldn't be an 8" By that logic the LACK of quality courses in an area would have to elevate some course ratings to a much higher one, but isn't the point of the Doak scale to define a course regardless of where it is located and what other courses are in the same area?

If you think the Red is an 8 it's an 8, or a 7 a7 or a 6.5 a 6.5. Just because Long Island has a dearth of great courses shouldn't lessen what the Red IS...

Phil-

  Sure. Ok, I'll give it a 7.5-taking all the emotion for me out of playing BSP, and the Red.  I think the maintenance aspect of it holds it back a bit-whether it's money, interest, human resources.  Phil, I love the Red.  You know I love the Red.  I shot my best complete round there.  But to be critical, I think there are aspects of the experience that detract.  I realize they do 35,000 rounds a year or so--you can correct me on the number.  I forget where I saw this.  If you can separate the pace of play-which, as I get a little older, I get a little more sensitive about, maybe because I don't have all day to play anymore, I still think improvements can be made.  

I don't love to criticize just for the sake of doing so-I love the place, and I wish it could be better.  

For one, I think Kyle pointed out a few years ago, the greens could be mowed to their original dimensions.  This may have changed.  
Second, some trees can come down-more specifically around holes 2 and 3.  
Fifth hole, there isn't a whole lot of interest for the second shot-the fw bunkers are mainly sentinel variety-maybe, if they were staggered and brought closer to the fw.  
Seven, I think the green could be expanded and maybe the bunkers redone.  In fact, let me say most all the greens look like they were originally designed as bigger.  Twelve could be expanded, it's an open hole-would be good for a longer par three, as I said, in the 215-230 range.  (most all the par 3's are about a 6 or 7 iron, and most all are basically flat holes, so depending on where they put the tees).  I'm not sure how far back you could build a tee, though, because you butt up to 6 tee. 13-14-15 are perfect, 16 is quirky but good.  Kyle Harris really likes 15.  I hate it.

Again, maybe bring the fw out or bunkers in or expand their size, within reason, for some additional challenge to the second shot.  Great green.  

17 is good, fun, but again, it seems very similar to the other par threes.  (Whereas, on Black, all the par threes are distinctly different).  As a sidenote, I really like the concept of each of the par threes on a course having a distinct and different shot requirement.  Similar to the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks holes in spirit and CONCEPT.  I didn't say template, and they don't have to be template par threes.  Just, make them each different in appearance, feel, and testing a certain kind of shot.

18 is all world.  

I feel that I positioned it as such because if it's a one-time trip, there's only one BB.  Red is good, but it could be great.  I think you can understand my spirit of saying that.

[Jamie_Duffner]

I've played all 5 a ton, but not much in the past 10 years.  Living in Texas will do that!  I will be up on LI next week visiting family and don't have plans to try and play anything at Bethpage, but I am going to take a drive over there just to walk around and reminisce a bit.

While I love the red, i honestly don't quite understand the comparison to the Black.  The Black to me is far superior with tremendous diagonal lines of play, but the courses are also much different.  The red's finishing hole is terrific.  If the black could "fix" 18 and get some tilt or contours in a few greens, it would be a 10.  For now, it's a 9.  I find the black to be very fair provided you play the correct tees.  I saw many a weekend warrior try to play the tips and just get hammered.  Since I have not played the black in a while, I will say the narrow fairways would probably change my mind - widen the fairways!

The red is a 7 in my book.  Terrific par 4's with some great variety.  The par 3's are decent, but not great.  THe par 5's are really boring to be honest. 

The green is neat course and oldest at Bethpage.  It has some interesting greens.  It's a short course and great for beginners.  A 6.

The blue and yellow are the two courses with returning 9's, so I played these a ton, if for no other reason than I didn't want the long walk in from the 9th hole on the black or way back on the property  on the green or red in pitch black.  I often ran out to bethpage at 6:30 or even 7 or 7:30pm and raced around these two courses.  Finishing up with"hit and hope" it went staright is something I did all the time. 

THe blue has a couple really hard par 4's and a couple interesting par 3's and the par 5 4th is very good hole.  I birdied 4 holes in a row once on the blue and will never forget that.  I haven't birdied two holes in a row since!  THe Yellow has a fun mix of holes too, sort of flat greens.  Both would be rated 5's in my opinion.   

[Kyle Harris]

Jamie,

The Red has been upgraded significantly, and I believe there are more diagonal type hazards on the Red than on the Black - the problem in perceiving them is the penalties for missing or not executing on the Red are all shades of gray in contrast to the much more rigid, digital, examination on the Black. Like I've said before, the diagonals only start to come into play when the player goes back a tee from their normal tee. For me, that's 7100 yards.

Doug,

All the Red bunkers have been redone and there has been some significant tree work - especially on the 5th hole. I've also realized that the 7th and 12th holes are mirror images of each other. 4 is a Par 3 worthy of attention, and 17 is a good, not great, short par 3.

So, I'm not quite sure where the similarities in the Par 3s are. For the Blue Course? Yes... Red - no way.

As an overall note - the Red is a lot more subtle than the Black. The Black Course is notable in that the requirements off the tee are extremely spelled out from the tee and for the golfer. Are obliques used effectively? Yes, of course, the 4th and 5th holes alone are worthy of significant study.

However, take a look at the Red's 1st hole and it may take a handful of plays to realize the best way to attack the green is from the left side of the fairway with the giant mound obscuring both the view and the slightly bladed shot.

Don't get to the outside of the corner on 2, or take the correct line on 3 and the approaches to the green are hampered by cross slopes and trees.

Try playing 5 as a three shotter from the right side of the fairway...

The list goes on and on....

And NONE of those examples use fairway bunkers, but the angles are sure there.

[Carl Nichols]

Just because Long Island has a dearth of great courses shouldn't lessen what the Red IS...

Philip:
I think you're the first person I've ever seen or heard make such a statement about L.I.....