Reaction to Shackelford Article in Golf Digest.Com 'Where do they go from here?'

[Carl Rogers]

Have any of read this article?  It paints a non-positive picture of future venues? ... perhaps enevitable given the money and many large sized egos involved.

Question
Has the USGA ever considered buying its own property or properties and building their own venues goegraphically distributed across the country?

Is this possible?  Would it help the problems that always seem to arise?

[Adam Clayman]

Carl. This is not a new idea and should be extended to the tour too.

For some reason they want nothing to do with it.

With 300 million in the bank, maybe the pockets need to be deeper.

[JC Jones]

The tour has, effectively, done that with their TPC courses.  Im not sure its a good idea b/c there are already enough golf courses out there that have asking prices north of $150 a round and my guess is that if the USGA built a US Open course they would charge the same as the TPC rates, or more.

[PCCraig]

I thought it was an interesting article mapping out where the current "rota" stands.

My thoughts on his list;

Pebble Beach - Obvious, pencil in 2020 for a return visit despite who wins at what score.

Pinehurst #2 - I think the two best things that Pinehurst has going for it is that a) its in the "south" (as far south as you can go in June without sweating away) which represents a huge golf area/town, and b) its different than the usual US Open course with its lack of real rough. Perhaps Pinehurst was the start of the new kinder USGA???

Oakmont - Oakmont is pretty much the perfect Open site now that they cut all the trees down and let the course breath and show off itself to its fullest. I don't know where Geoff gets his ideas about Mike Davis cutting down all of the rough. I think if there is ever a course that deserves the full USGA treatment its Oakmont.


Olympic - It's in a major city, but being so close to Pebble and Torrey Pines I can see the USGA starting to come here once every 15-20 years instead of a 'rota.'

Merion - There is no way that 2013 will be the last time they visit. Players change, the game changes, but the best courses find new ways to defend itself and to create the best story-lines. The US Am there was awesome, the Walker Cup this summer should be a blast to watch, and I can't imagine the Open being any different. Even if the score is -35, rock on, it's Merion!

Congressional - I think it's biggest selling point is that it's in D.C., a big marget that they may feel compelled to go to every once in a while. I've never seen the course, but for the most part it seems the pro's like it. I can see the USGA taking a long break before returning.

WFW - I would say it returns around 2025-2030 when the membership has turned over a bit and ready to host again.

SH - Probably closer to 2025, and I'm betting the USGA returns here before BPB.

Bethpage - The US Open will return there eventually, the USGA has invested too much in the site not to. But I don't think we will see the 7 year return like we did the last time.

Torrey Pines - I can't imagine them not going back there again eventually with the show that was put on last year with Tiger. If Rocco won? We probably wouldn't be talking about a return trip this century. Weather isn't a factor and Geoff is right when saying that east coast prime time TV is huge for the USGA.

Chambers Bay - I have no idea about the turf problems he notes. I'm actually still not sure why they acutally picked it for an Open. It looks like a cool course from the pictures I've seen, but maybe it was from the pressure to get to the Northwest for the first time.

Erin Hills - All signs are pointing to 2017, but I think it has alot to do with how the US Am goes. Cog Hill was all ready to go for the 2003 Open when they hosted the 1997 US Am, which didn't go so well and the Open went to OFCC (at the time the right choice).

Trump - No chance.

Cog Hill - They sure have a US Open course now, and it's in the #3 market in the country. They won't ignore it forever.

Riviera - Would be a cool site, but I think TP will get another Open before.

Cherry Hills- I would think it would be cool, but everyone seems to think its impossible because its too short.

Inverness - It's in Toledo, which doesn't help. But the golf course is there.

TCC - I wouldn't sleep on Brookline. As if I were a betting man I would think they would return to Boston with a few tweaks to the course (length). I think they should of gone there in 2013 as well, but 2023 is a possibilty as well.

OFCC - I still think OFCC was and is a cool Open site. It's in Chicago, there's tons of space, and the golf course is pretty darn good.

and

Bellerieve - Watch for Bellerive to get either an Open or a PGA in the next 20 years. STL has been hosting mid-large 2nd tier USGA events for years (including this year over at Old Warson) and eventually the USGA is going to return the favor. Plus, the STL golf fans go nuts when they actually get an event as witnessed by the huge turnout for the Western last fall in the rain. (Talk about a course getting nailed with rain and still holding up a little bit without major-like conditions).

[Kevin_Reilly]

I posted these questions re: Olympic to Geoff on his site:

Early reviews on the club's greens reconstruction have some Executive Committee members squeamish about the 2012 Open.

Geoff, what reviews of the greens reconstruction are you referring to here.  Posts on GCA?  Your comment about 7 and 8 previously on this site ("uninspired") ?

Which Executive Committee members are squeamish about the greens reconstruction? 

In what way is #8 is "now bland" compared to its predecessor?

[Kevin_Reilly]

With 300 million in the bank, maybe the pockets need to be deeper.

The USGA had $290 million of cash and marketable securities at the end of 2007...by November 2008, the amount had shrunk to $190 million.

[Richard Choi]

Chambers Bay - I have no idea about the turf problems he notes. I'm actually still not sure why they acutally picked it for an Open. It looks like a cool course from the pictures I've seen, but maybe it was from the pressure to get to the Northwest for the first time.

Turf won't be a problem for 2010 Am based on the current conditioning. But I do have concerns that the rebuilt 4th green may not be ready for 2010, but it should be fine for 2015 Open.

The current greens are comparable to the greens at Ballyneal. CB greens actually have better density from what I can see, but it is running slightly slower than Ballyneal right now (CB shuttle drivers are now saying they are running at 9 - it is more like 6, but smooth, and I REALLY wish they would stop spreading false information like that).

I have no doubt that the 2015 Open will be a success. Whether or not they come back, I have no idea.

[Matthew Rose]

Is Cherry Hills still too short even after the reno?

[Sean Leary]

Chambers Bay - I have no idea about the turf problems he notes. I'm actually still not sure why they acutally picked it for an Open. It looks like a cool course from the pictures I've seen, but maybe it was from the pressure to get to the Northwest for the first time.

Turf won't be a problem for 2010 Am based on the current conditioning. But I do have concerns that the rebuilt 4th green may not be ready for 2010, but it should be fine for 2015 Open.

The current greens are comparable to the greens at Ballyneal. CB greens actually have better density from what I can see, but it is running slightly slower than Ballyneal right now (CB shuttle drivers are now saying they are running at 9 - it is more like 6, but smooth, and I REALLY wish they would stop spreading false information like that).

I have no doubt that the 2015 Open will be a success. Whether or not they come back, I have no idea.

I am heading back to CB in 2 weeks. Do you think that the Shuttle drivers saying they are nine, then getting 6 when you play causes people to come down harder on the conditions?

How is the rough with the new rough lines?

[Richard Choi]

I am heading back to CB in 2 weeks. Do you think that the Shuttle drivers saying they are nine, then getting 6 when you play causes people to come down harder on the conditions?

How is the rough with the new rough lines?

I think that has a lot to do with it. You are setting the wrong expectations for the people. You should be setting them lower, rather than setting them so high (especially when you cannot deliver). I believe they are basing their speed on the putting green by the range, which has always been a couple of feet faster than the greens on the course (which throws off your game even more as people leave their putts short for first several holes before they adjust).

I hate the new rough lines as they just look very unnatural. But thankfully they are not very tall and they are wispy so you can play out of them without much problem. I am guessing they will have the rough much thicker by next year.

[George Pazin]

It would be absolutely unforgivable to wait 21 years to return to Shinney, if the members are willing to host the Open.

Pat, I don't think Geoff is suggesting Mike Davis have Oakmont go rough-less, just have a little less rough, just a little more width on the fairways. Personally I think it would be the coolest golf experiment ever to go with an old Augusta setup - i.e. no rough - and see how Oakmont holds up, but I'm going out on a limb and guessing we will never see that.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious about another Long Island course, not that they need another...

But how Open worthy could Sebonack possibly be? Not that I'm advocating making changes or alterations, but if the rough was grown up and its stretched to the tips would be it a good test?

[peter_mcknight]

As it relates to Bethapge, one would think it all revolves around who's the current governor and his willingness to work with the USGA to get the job done.  Bethpage got both under the Pataki administration, an administration that demonstrated commitment to ensuring the success of the event.  Given the current state of affairs in Albany, one would think Far Hills would wait on a new administration before offering them a third open, which means they wouldn't be offered one until mid 2011 at the earliest.  With that, they are probably looking at a 2019 date.

As to Torrey Pines, outside the ropes, it works out so well.  Will be more complicated the next time to arrange the deal with the city if there is an unfriendly mayor.  Still, one would believe 2018 isn't outside the realm of possibility.  I suppose another question is, will the USGA insist on future course enhancements and who will pay for them.  I keep hearing of the desire to push no. 4 hard against the clilffs to improve the hole, then sort-of rework no. 5 into a much better hole for starters.

Pinehurst:  They will go back as long as they are invited.  When they host in 2014, that will be 3 in 15 years.  I can see them with a fourth as early as 2021 or 2022.

Anything in Chicago and Cherry Hills:  Unfriendly local governments make Cherry Hills, Cog Hill and OFCC difficult sells.  Cherry Hills has the additional problem of no more than 7500 yards, which is probably around what Merion will play at in 2013 from an apples to apples perspective controlling for elevation.  Cook County no fun to deal with, either.

Pebble Beach:  I can see 2020, but anything after that maybe a bit of a push because Pebble will play maxed out at 7015 next year.  If the USGA wants Pebble, they'll get it every ten years.

Congressional:  They'll go there because it's in DC and it works outside the ropes.  Just an average course, though.  Will be interesting in 2011 with the par 5s on the front and none on the back.

Erin Hills:  They will have to wait until after the 2011 Amateur dummy run to determine the course's quality to host the big one.  Chambers Bay is a better design and has a more important variable than EH--it's on the west coast (prime time EDT) and in Seattle.  Lack of infrastructure around the town isn't the greatest either.

[Mike Bowline]

Is Cherry Hills still too short even after the reno?

The reno at CHCC was so much more about restoring the original William Flynn design (and removing false steps by others) than it was about adding length. However, length was added when feasible and in concert with the original Flynn hole design concept.

Per chance TD does not respond, the reno at Cherry Hills added /subtracted as follows (my yardage estimates from eye-balling the new tees as compared to the old tees):
#1 no change
#2 +3 yds
#3 -15 yds
#4 no change
#5 +10 yds
#6 +5 yds
#7 no change
#8 +27 yds
#9 +55 yds
#10 +8 yds
#11 +18 yds
#12 no change
#13 +22 yds
#14 +17 yds
#15 +25 yds
#16 +24 yds
#17 no change
#18 no change

This adds up to a net addition of about 200 yards. In the thin air of Denver, top players hit the ball just unbelievable distances. Witness the recurring 300 + yd 3-woods of players at the Publinks at Murphy Creek GC.

The '12 USGA Am will be interesting to watch and see current equipment and players at the renovated course.

[Matthew Rose]

Hopefully at some point someone will kindly post some photos of the new Cherry Hills... I have yet to see any updates to the website

[John Moore II]

I don't see the USGA running its own courses. The PGA has kind of worked it out, but from what I understand it took some extensive ironing out. PGA National and PGA West are no longer owned by the PGA of America; they are privately owned and operated with a royalty paid to the PGA every year to use the name. PGA Village in Port St Lucie and the new PGA Village in Nevada are in less golf saturated locations, plus the Florida location has a awesome practice center. I just don't see a need for the USGA to do something like that; it works for the PGA Tour because those courses wind up hosting events every year, making them big money savers from the course cost end and huge money makers as stand alone courses. That model might be able to work for the USGA if they rotated all of their events through there on a year-to-year basis.

However, think of this, do we really think a course well suited to host a US Open would be well suited to host the Boy's Junior or Women's Am Publinx? I just don't think it could be a really profitable operation for the USGA (of course they are a non-profit, but I think it is understood what I mean)

[CJ Carder]

Congressional - I think it's biggest selling point is that it's in D.C., a big marget that they may feel compelled to go to every once in a while. I've never seen the course, but for the most part it seems the pro's like it. I can see the USGA taking a long break before returning.

I'm curious about the regional nature of the Open sites.  Obviously Pinehurst, Congressional, Merion (assuming it sticks), and Oakmont are geographically similar if I'm painting with a broad brush.  Still, I wonder - are there any other DC area sites that could realistically host an Open?  I don't pretend to know the logistics required or the space necessary, but since RTJ has been able to support the President's Cup, could they swing one?  What about Trump purchasing Lowe's Island - will he push for something after it's all said and done?  How about Kinloch?  Would Bulle Rock have enough infrastructure assuming the ladies are leaving?  Would the USGA even want to explore that given their avoidance of PGA Championship sites and the related past use of Bulle Rock for the LPGA Championship?

[John Moore II]

Congressional - I think it's biggest selling point is that it's in D.C., a big marget that they may feel compelled to go to every once in a while. I've never seen the course, but for the most part it seems the pro's like it. I can see the USGA taking a long break before returning.

I'm curious about the regional nature of the Open sites.  Obviously Pinehurst, Congressional, Merion (assuming it sticks), and Oakmont are geographically similar if I'm painting with a broad brush.  Still, I wonder - are there any other DC area sites that could realistically host an Open?  I don't pretend to know the logistics required or the space necessary, but since RTJ has been able to support the President's Cup, could they swing one?  What about Trump purchasing Lowe's Island - will he push for something after it's all said and done?  How about Kinloch?  Would Bulle Rock have enough infrastructure assuming the ladies are leaving?  Would the USGA even want to explore that given their avoidance of PGA Championship sites and the related past use of Bulle Rock for the LPGA Championship?

Looking at Bulle Rock from an aerial, I am not certain it could handle the traffic of an open. It looks like it could handle only limited spectators behind the range, I do not see a space big enough to hold the merchandise tents and corporate village, and I see nowhere to park.

As far as the other golf courses go, it seems the USGA has generall stayed away from non-'top 100' golf courses, Torrey Pines being a notable exception. That is part of the reason I am not sure if Cog Hill will host an Open.

I would like to see the US Open played in Florida as there are likely some good choices down there. Though I have the idea that the Players kind of ends that idea since it is so close in date now.

[CJ Carder]

As far as the other golf courses go, it seems the USGA has generall stayed away from non-'top 100' golf courses, Torrey Pines being a notable exception. That is part of the reason I am not sure if Cog Hill will host an Open.

Fair enough, but (serious question) where was BB located before 2002?  Kinloch is considered a Top 100 on most lists I have seen.

[John Moore II]

As far as the other golf courses go, it seems the USGA has generall stayed away from non-'top 100' golf courses, Torrey Pines being a notable exception. That is part of the reason I am not sure if Cog Hill will host an Open.

Fair enough, but (serious question) where was BB located before 2002?  Kinloch is considered a Top 100 on most lists I have seen.

BB from what I know was in and out of the top 100 for a while preceeding the 2002 Open. I know it was on the list in 1997 because GD wrote a special feature about it that year. The main thing keeping it out was conditioning, however (I think the Black scored 2.5 or something on conditions in 97, it was mentioned they were by far the lowest on the list). Bethpage just needed money to rework some stuff that had been lost over the years.

I looked up Kinloch on google maps and I am not sure it could host a major event. While it is fairly accessible from anywhere with the highways, it seems to have almost no parking, and assuming I am looking at the right map, the lake in the middle of the property would be pure havoc on everything related to the event. From camera wire, to moving players around, to getting spectators around the course, any fixed seating needed and the list can go on. It might be a great course by itself, but to host those events you have to have a fair amount of open space almost butting up to the course in order to have the corporate stuff and a huge space to handle the car park.

That is the problem with 'picking' a US Open venue. The course needs to be good, but the ability to handle 35,000 people a day, plus cars, etc. is a major deciding factor, likely greater a factor than the actual course in some cases.

[Steve Lapper]

I thought it was an interesting article mapping out where the current "rota" stands.

My thoughts on his list;


WFW - I would say it returns around 2025-2030 when the membership has turned over a bit and ready to host again.

SH - Probably closer to 2025, and I'm betting the USGA returns here before BPB.

Trump - No chance.

Cog Hill - They sure have a US Open course now, and it's in the #3 market in the country. They won't ignore it forever.

WFW---You are considerably off base. The club's "No" bloc isn't attributable to the demographic you suggest.

Shinny-- It is only a matter of time, but I'd be surprised if didn't happen 5yrs sooner than you think. CS remains the key decisional vote there.

Trump- Imagine if the Donald GAVE the place to the USGA....doesn't pay to bet against the man.

Cog Hill--Not any time soon...better chance of getting more PGA-related event(s).

[Jeff Evagues]

I'm curious about another Long Island course, not that they need another...

But how Open worthy could Sebonack possibly be? Not that I'm advocating making changes or alterations, but if the rough was grown up and its stretched to the tips would be it a good test?

I've played Sebonack several times and my thought was they could have the Open there tomorrow. Getting the 2013 Womens Open should be a good precursor. If SH balks for a while I would expect Sebonack to fill the void.

[David Schmiel]

Congressional:  They'll go there because it's in DC and it works outside the ropes.  Just an average course, though.  Will be interesting in 2011 with the par 5s on the front and none on the back.

Mostly a lurker here but I don't think this is correct.  The current par-70 layout for the AT&T National at Congressional, which I'm pretty sure they will keep for the 2011 Open, has two par-5s:  #9 and #16. 

Agree mostly with the sentiment on the averageness of the course, with the exception of #18 which is a great finishing hole and will always have the Venturi "My God, I've won the Open" quote to live on. 

[peter_mcknight]

Mr Schmiel...

From what I have read and heard, M Davis of the USGA wants no. 6 to be the par 5 risk/reward to encourage the guys to go for it in two shots over the fronting pond.  As a result, the 1997 rotation no. 16, which will become the 2011 rotation no. 15, will play as the par 4 on the back.  I suppose no. 6 will become sort-of similar to Torrey no. 18 in that it could play anywhere from 525 to 575.  The risk-reward deal doesn't exist with the par 5 on the back.

[David Schmiel]

Mr Schmiel...

From what I have read and heard, M Davis of the USGA wants no. 6 to be the par 5 risk/reward to encourage the guys to go for it in two shots over the fronting pond.  As a result, the 1997 rotation no. 16, which will become the 2011 rotation no. 15, will play as the par 4 on the back.  I suppose no. 6 will become sort-of similar to Torrey no. 18 in that it could play anywhere from 525 to 575.  The risk-reward deal doesn't exist with the par 5 on the back.

Thanks Peter.  Are those the only two changes considered for the Open (the changing of #6 to a par-5 and changing #16 to a par-4)?