[ChipOat]

CBM/Raynor didn't build it (Tillinghast did), but the 2nd hole at Somerset Hills is an excellent Redan, IMO.

In my experience, going over the green on #17 at Shinnecock isn't much of a worry so I can't see so much "Redan-ness" on that hole.  Also, the ground in front of the green is flat, so bouncing the ball onto the putting surface (even downwind) isn't a big part of the strategy, either.

[jkinney]

I think the Redan is something that most golfers do not like. I can't say I have ever wanted to build a green like it but at one of my recent projects Cumberwell Park we built a fourth nine that was a bit quirky and definitely influenced by this site. The course manager was Marc Haring, a member of this forum, he really wanted a Redan, we ended up compromising a bit but the green slopes away on one side and I put some flats on the other and every person I bump into likes every hole bar this one. Everytime they say the same thing and at the only other Redan style green in our area (6th at Bristol & Clifton) there is no love for the green style at all and I tend to agree with them.

IMO, Macdonald vastly improved on North Berwick's Redan when he built National's 4th hole. The fortress aspect of NB's redan occurs 30 yds. or so in front of the green with the first mound and bunker complex. This is then followed by a meaningless moat knockoff in the form of a deep valley before the green. In military design moats are a first, not second line of defense. Also the green is invisible from the tee. What a great disappointment this hole was to me when I first saw it.

[Rich Goodale]

jkinney

You don't really believe that somebody dug out that "moat" in front of the green, do you?  The guys that named that hole Redan were not designers, they were observers with experience with real redans in the Crimean War.

BTW, of course you would be disappointed with 15 at NB if you had already seen 4 NGLA.  The latter is a much better golf hole, but it ain't a redan.

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

A Redan is as Rich mentioned a part of a fortification and was commonplace in the Crimean War from which the Hole on North Berwick is named.

We must not confuse ourselves as to what it actually is and what we see on the course. It is not in any way a Redoubt

Nor for that matter is it a Ravelin

However, it is a Redan

Which would look like the following sketch if part of a fortification.


The question is what do you think you see when playing this hole?

Melvyn

[jkinney]

Rich - I didn't day the moat was dug out. It very much looks like part of the terrain features that were there when the hole was crafted. What concerns me about it to this day is that, IMO, it detracts from the hole.

Melvyn - Thanks for pointing out the difference between a redoubt and a redan. Interestingly the fortification in Sevastopol that led the Scot veterans to name the hole seemed more of a redoubt from my recollection of a sketch. Whatever. The first bunkered hill on NB's 15th that hides the green from the tee box is clearly a fortification.

What Macdonald realized instinctively about the hole was that its greatness lay in the green's contouring and orientation, not in the fortification hiding it from view. So his version of the fortification at NGLA's 4th became the hill fronting the right side, and his version of the moat became the slight depression fronting the left side. He left the green in plain view from the tee. The result was one of
Golf Magazine's 18 greatest holes in the world and the hole Crenshaw called the best par 3 anywhere.

[Lyne Morrison]

The question is what do you think you see when playing this hole?

Melvyn


trouble !?  : )

[Melvyn Morrow]

Lyne

I see the imprint of tens of thousand of golfers who have faced the Redan over the last two centuries, yet I also see the unmistakable shape and curves of the female form enticing me to go further. Aaaaarrrrrhhhh - sorry, it’s also another reason for my enjoyment of Links Golf.

Playing the Redan for the first time, one feels a sense of anticipation, based perhaps upon its reputation and name, nevertheless it is just another obstacle in the 18 challenges (36 if one is lucky & sensible) you accepted when arriving at North Berwick. I have mentioned in the past that one should play the course and not necessary keep going for distance. The well thought out approach if balanced by the golfers skill will I believe result in a more enjoyable and low scoring round. 

The Links course is a Lady, if treated so, will make the experience even more exciting and enjoyable. As for the Redan, approach with respect and she a pussycat.

Being a good husband, my wife has edited this post.

Melvyn     

PS Trouble, my wife tells me is the result of not showing the due respect

[Niall C]

The Redan Tom and company built at Old Macdonald is an excellent version. The hole will play downwind most of the time so Tom thought turning the green at the “normal” 45 degrees would be too severe.

The overall appearance may be a little different that the Redan-image most people in their mind BUT you will find it will PLAY very close to the “norm.”

You’ll be hard pressed to par the hole and it will be a fun hole to play.

George

Does the original green really lie 45 degrees to the tee ? I think the reason the original doesn't get that much love is because it is one of those old fashioned blind/semi-blind holes that the regular player (that is, regular player of that hole) doesn't so much see as feel. They know instinctively, from how they hit the shot and from experience, where the ball is going to end up, even though they can't see it land or how it runs.

That is why most people who only play it once or twice don't rate it. They may understand the basic idea of the design but without the backlog of knowledge of playing the hole previously they don't get the full effect. Of course I could just be talking bollocks.

Niall

[Sean_A]

I think the Redan is something that most golfers do not like. I can't say I have ever wanted to build a green like it but at one of my recent projects Cumberwell Park we built a fourth nine that was a bit quirky and definitely influenced by this site. The course manager was Marc Haring, a member of this forum, he really wanted a Redan, we ended up compromising a bit but the green slopes away on one side and I put some flats on the other and every person I bump into likes every hole bar this one. Everytime they say the same thing and at the only other Redan style green in our area (6th at Bristol & Clifton) there is no love for the green style at all and I tend to agree with them.

IMO, Macdonald vastly improved on North Berwick's Redan when he built National's 4th hole. The fortress aspect of NB's redan occurs 30 yds. or so in front of the green with the first mound and bunker complex. This is then followed by a meaningless moat knockoff in the form of a deep valley before the green. In military design moats are a first, not second line of defense. Also the green is invisible from the tee. What a great disappointment this hole was to me when I first saw it.

J

This is a very disappointing thread.  You have lost the context of the Redan previously being a longer hole and conceived of before the Haskell.

Ciao

[Steve Salmen]

There is a big difference to me between the Redans I've played in the US and the original in North Berwick.  Here, short and right seems the preferred place for a miss.  At NB, there is room long and left, and it's uphill to the flag.  There is no rough and the ball can be putted or chipped.  At Piping, long and left drops off severely leaving a very difficult uphill pitch from fairly deep rough.  Chicago is similar but not as extreme.  I have not played NGLA or Shinnecock so I don't know if there is run off or a steep bank with rough or other trouble.  At these courses, is short right better than long and left?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Understanding the Redan – what is there to actually understand. Some of us like it some don’t. Nevertheless, the fact that it has been copied and variations of it exist, states it position as a classic hole in Golf.

Have the years tamed it since 1869 or have numerous tweaks over the years improved it, for me it does not matter because it is part of a great course.

The fact that there are so many copies/variations of the Redan out there proves that previous generations actually understood golf perhaps better that I, believe we do. Many golfers do even understand the name let alone where the name originated, hence my earlier breakdown.

To prove my point perhaps we should look at (you may have to excuse me as I do not know the American courses) say, NGLA & Merion, two courses which have copies the original from North Berwick.   

The only understand we need to remember is that we can’t agree with each other on this site, nor for that matter are we interested in understanding our fellow member’s point of view or opinions. Thanks God for holes like the Redan, whatever your opinion, as I said above is part of a great course, which I believe is all we really need to understand. Ladies & Gentlemen come, play a real golf course, and decide for yourselves, because ultimately that’s the only opinion, which actually matters – yours.

Melvyn

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