Where is the next Bethpage Black?

[PCCraig]

The recent thread and article in the Boston Globe regarding the USGA visiting local munis with the motive to renovate and rebuild with the eventual idea of hosting a U.S. Open on the site got me thinking.

Where is the next Bethpage Black?

Is it in Boston at George Wright? In Chicago at George Dunne National? In Philly at Cobbs Creek? Or is it somewhere else? Lets let our imagination run wild for a second. What courses, if granted $5,000,000 by the USGA could be built to host the Open?

My vote for best potential site...the lakeside Jackson Park / South Shore golf courses on the south side of Chicago!

[Joe Bausch]

In Philly at Cobbs Creek?

IMHO, Cobb's Creek could not be stretched out far enough to meet the requirements for hosting a PGA event.  However, the original layout with a couple of nips and tucks could be a wonderful course for the Women's US Open.  Again, my opinion.  I'm sure there are some chuckling at this thought right now.

[Scott Warren]

What's the obsession with hosting it at a muni? Surely in the current economy, you'd save the cash and use any one of the many courses already equipped for such an event...

[PCCraig]

What's the obsession with hosting it at a muni? Surely in the current economy, you'd save the cash and use any one of the many courses already equipped for such an event...

I believe the obsession comes from the USGA's ability to better the overall game of golf through its investment (either through time or capital). Why should an organization which depends on so much annual member dues continue to host its Open on very private courses? Would it not be better spent preserving golf courses that could use a second chance?

As much as I give the New Yorkers trouble for their constant chest beating for Bethpage, look how many people are exposed to great GCA (knowingly or unknowingly) for the first time every year! Many of which are never going to be able to play WFW, but can go play Bethpage anytime.

And it doesn't have to be a muni. It could be a private-owned public course (ie Cog Hill). What would be wrong with the USGA committing to bringing an Open to a certain site, investing money in the course either as an upfront deposit on the use of the property or a small ownership stake in the Company/Course that could be paid back over time as a profit sharing?

[Scott Warren]

For what I imagine it would cost to transform a standard muni for a US Open, you could inject the money into a redesign of 10 or more munis across the country, and expose 10 times the golfers to a better course. That's if it really is about creating better golf courses for Joe Public to play on, but I suspect there is more to it than that.

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

I've long thought that Lawsonia could host, perhaps not the men's or even senior men's, but maybe the Women's US Open if lengthened (not overly) in a few key spots, and especially if the greens were cut in such a way to get them up to championship speed.

It currently goes 6,700+ from the tips, about what the last few women's Opens have been played at, and that could be lengthened in a few areas without too much trouble. It'd be a wonderful showcase for the Langford & Moreau course; Langford's work is little-known outside golf geek circles, and the course would look wonderful on TV. Most importantly, I think it could be a terrific challenge for the women with a thoughtful set-up.

Logistics would be a bit problematic, but I think overcome without too much difficulty. There is plenty of room on the grounds for all of the related stuff that comes with the Open these days. Not sure if the American Baptist Assembly would go for it, though; they'd have to turn a blind eye at all the beer consumption.

[mike_beene]

The property that Tenison Park in Dallas sits on is a big ,broad shouldered property that has some big elevation change.I am not familiar with the redesign of the west course,but it follows the same corridors as the old with some sequencing changes.The city is sadly disfunctional, but five million and you have the premier course in the southwest with another 18 holes for all the corporate tents you would ever need an easy 10 minutes from downtown.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

 What a great question. I could not name one but I think it would be a great idea. Munis for majors make the game seem less stuffy.

  Anthony

[Tim Gavrich]

If there was more room out there to extend the tees back, Wintonbury Hills might have potential.  It would take a monumental toughening of the golf course that would kind of defeat its current allure to public golfers: a nice, user-friendly new course.  The course can play extremely firm and fast and the greens could defend themselves pretty well, but that's about it.  The bunkers are largely out of play and again, the golf course is simply too short.

There is a local public facility called Tunxis Plantation in Farmington that has 45 pretty mediocre holes.  Theoretically, it would take blowing away 36 of the 45 and building a totally new 18.  The courses there drain very well, for the most part; their greens are always pretty firm.  I wonder...

Similar situations are present at at least two other locations in CT: at Blackledge in Hebron and at Lyman Orchards in Middlefield.  Both have 36 holes and enough theoretical room.

The last thing option I can think of is Richter Park in Danbury.  It's an 18 hole facility but is adjacent to a big forested area.  Of course, the local tree-hugging society might not take too kindly to the idea of hacking away at the woods to build a proper practice facility and bring the golf course to US Open readiness. 

And on top of all this, Connecticut isn't likely to receive an Open because it's too close to NYC and there's already Bethpage Black, which is probably better than anything someone could come up with.  I guess I'll have to move in order to claim that my state has held a major.

[John Moore II]

I want to see how Bryan Park plays for the Publinx in 2010. That course could be a serious contender for an Amateur or Open if they don't fall flat for the Publinx. It could play as a real brute of a par 71 (one hole, for a longer hitter is a legit par 4, its like 485 from the back tees). There are also several places where longer tees could be put into play and retain the same shot values. They also have the facility there to handle the corporate village and all that residual stuff that goes with a Major. Bryan Park is sort of city owned (owned by City of Greensboro, leased by the Bryan Foundation and managed by Pinnacle Golf) and to me is an outstanding golf course. I hope they do land a really big event there.

[Tim Gavrich]

Whoa, I totally forgot about Bryan Park!  It has some real potential.  I shot one of the best 76s I've ever shot this past October there on a day when the course was very wet and the rough was as thick as any I've played from.  The course is 7200 from the tips and it played about 7400 that day.

Heck, what about reviving Tanglewood Park?  It held the PGA in 1974, so it has the pedigree.

[John Moore II]

Whoa, I totally forgot about Bryan Park!  It has some real potential.  I shot one of the best 76s I've ever shot this past October there on a day when the course was very wet and the rough was as thick as any I've played from.  The course is 7200 from the tips and it played about 7400 that day.

Heck, what about reviving Tanglewood Park?  It held the PGA in 1974, so it has the pedigree.

They could do Tanglewood, but I wonder if it has the space needed to handle the crowds, tents and all the other things that are needed to handle the traffic. Bryan Park has 3 driving ranges and a good amount of open land on the backside of the property that could be used for the players range and parking. I am not sure that Tanglewood has the open land and other stuff necessary to handle the traffic for a major. Without having seen the Par 3 course area there, I can tell you the range at Tanglewood is nowhere near big enough to be used by the players, and it has no room to be expanded.

[Matthew Rose]

Has the USGA ever considered building its own course? You have TPCs and PGA National and PGA West and World Golf Village... I guess I'm surprised the USGA hasn't pushed forth a purpose-built layout which could be open to the public but built as a venue with Opens and Ams in mind.

Moonah Links, for better or worse, was built as a prospective Oz Open venue and it made me wonder if the USGA would ever consider such a thing. Some of the purists here might prefer such a thing as an alternative to the further Rees-ification of classic courses.

[Steve Salmen]

Pat,

I'm late to the dance on this thread but from what I've heard, Harding Park near SF is phenomenal.  They wouldn't even need much USGA $s because the city already spent 24M.  The President's Cup is there this year.  I don't know how long it is.  What Harding has over Dunne is that it's more mature and does not have any stupid holes like #4,#11, or one of the worst holes in Chicagoland, #18.

Steve

[PCCraig]

Pat:

I've long thought that Lawsonia could host, perhaps not the men's or even senior men's, but maybe the Women's US Open if lengthened (not overly) in a few key spots, and especially if the greens were cut in such a way to get them up to championship speed.

It currently goes 6,700+ from the tips, about what the last few women's Opens have been played at, and that could be lengthened in a few areas without too much trouble. It'd be a wonderful showcase for the Langford & Moreau course; Langford's work is little-known outside golf geek circles, and the course would look wonderful on TV. Most importantly, I think it could be a terrific challenge for the women with a thoughtful set-up.

Logistics would be a bit problematic, but I think overcome without too much difficulty. There is plenty of room on the grounds for all of the related stuff that comes with the Open these days. Not sure if the American Baptist Assembly would go for it, though; they'd have to turn a blind eye at all the beer consumption.

Phil-

That is a very neat idea. I think it should be a trend to take the US Women's Open to some cool classic clubs, and not always the Men's venues (IE Oakmont/Pinehurst).

I suppose the best part about the potential for hosting a Women's Open is that the course doesn't have to be super long.

[PCCraig]

And on top of all this, Connecticut isn't likely to receive an Open because it's too close to NYC and there's already Bethpage Black, which is probably better than anything someone could come up with.  I guess I'll have to move in order to claim that my state has held a major.

I think it would be a tough sell on the USGA to invest more $$ in an area so close to Bethpage, however with the USGA's strong east-coast bias you never know. 

Isn't this the big opportunity for the Open to move to other parts of the country though that it hasn't already been in the past?

[PCCraig]

Pat,

I'm late to the dance on this thread but from what I've heard, Harding Park near SF is phenomenal.  They wouldn't even need much USGA $s because the city already spent 24M.  The President's Cup is there this year.  I don't know how long it is.  What Harding has over Dunne is that it's more mature and does not have any stupid holes like #4,#11, or one of the worst holes in Chicagoland, #18.

Steve

Steve-

Hope Dornoch is treating you well!

George Dunne was thrown out there as a "next Bethpage" because I always used to hear how Chicago golfers would sleep in their cars to play it a la the NY venue. Which I always found strange considering the wealth of affordable public options in the area compared to NYC/East Coast cities.

If a big tournament were ever to come to Dunne, it would almost need to be leveled and redesigned. But the land needed is there though.

Harding Park is a good example which I thought of, but figured they were well aligned with the PGA and in Olympic's home town.

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

I've long thought that Lawsonia could host, perhaps not the men's or even senior men's, but maybe the Women's US Open if lengthened (not overly) in a few key spots, and especially if the greens were cut in such a way to get them up to championship speed.

It currently goes 6,700+ from the tips, about what the last few women's Opens have been played at, and that could be lengthened in a few areas without too much trouble. It'd be a wonderful showcase for the Langford & Moreau course; Langford's work is little-known outside golf geek circles, and the course would look wonderful on TV. Most importantly, I think it could be a terrific challenge for the women with a thoughtful set-up.

Logistics would be a bit problematic, but I think overcome without too much difficulty. There is plenty of room on the grounds for all of the related stuff that comes with the Open these days. Not sure if the American Baptist Assembly would go for it, though; they'd have to turn a blind eye at all the beer consumption.

Phil-

That is a very neat idea. I think it should be a trend to take the US Women's Open to some cool classic clubs, and not always the Men's venues (IE Oakmont/Pinehurst).

I suppose the best part about the potential for hosting a Women's Open is that the course doesn't have to be super long.

Pat:

I think the USGA has done a great job lately of placing the Women's Open at some great classic courses that don't necessarily have the length for the mens, or US AM -- Prairie Dunes, Pine Needles, Orchards, Newport esp. Good exposure for some classics that fly under the radar compared to the Oakmonts of the world.

[Rich Goodale]

Since the USGA's sphere of influence in the world of golf includes not only the USA but Mexico, how about going south of the border?  Now that would be a real "golf for the people" experience!

[Phil_the_Author]

Rich,

Hosting the United States Open in Mexico would only work if they held the Mexican Open in Oregon...

[Adam_Messix]

Hopefully Dan Wexler will chime in here, but a restored Timber Point would be incredible.  Unfortunately, it's on Long Island fairly close to Bethpage and Suffolk County doesn't want to lose the extra nine holes worth of revenue.

[Cliff Hamm]

While I won't question David Fay's motives in moving the USGA to a public venue and BPB is certainly deserving, Torrey Pines not so much, there is a certain patronizing feel to it all.  As a public links golfer the USGA ads aimed at the public golfer - 'to all of those who have gotten up at 6 for a tee time, hit off of mats, etc- this championship is for you' I found rather insulting.  It just came across 'for all you poor chaps who can't afford private golf we're throwing you a bone'.  Maybe I'm off base but that was and is my feeling.

As stated previously by Scott Warren I would much rather the USGA focus in on improving the  public golf experience.  Perhaps a TPC model for the public golfer?  Perhaps encouraging private courses to allow limited public play as seen in the British isles? Whatever.  The US Open should be held on the best golf course.  Public/private should not be a determining factor.

[Garland Bayley]

If driving average goes down significantly with the new groove rules, then many more options might come into play like Witch Hollow which was obsoleted by the new ball.

[Mike Benham]

For what I imagine it would cost to transform a standard muni for a US Open, you could inject the money into a redesign of 10 or more munis across the country, and expose 10 times the golfers to a better course. That's if it really is about creating better golf courses for Joe Public to play on, but I suspect there is more to it than that.

You do realize that millions and millions of people watched the US Open on TV. 

Are you assuming that the only way to expose golfers to a better course is by actually visiting the course?

[Kyle Henderson]

Harding Park's practice facilities are much too small to handle full field events, though I suppose they could take over the short Fleming course if needed. Still, I can't see the USGA  jumping from Olympic, which can hold a lot more hospitality tents and features a natural amphitheater around the 18th green.

Pat,

I'm late to the dance on this thread but from what I've heard, Harding Park near SF is phenomenal.  They wouldn't even need much USGA $s because the city already spent 24M.  The President's Cup is there this year.  I don't know how long it is.  What Harding has over Dunne is that it's more mature and does not have any stupid holes like #4,#11, or one of the worst holes in Chicagoland, #18.

Steve

Steve-

Hope Dornoch is treating you well!

George Dunne was thrown out there as a "next Bethpage" because I always used to hear how Chicago golfers would sleep in their cars to play it a la the NY venue. Which I always found strange considering the wealth of affordable public options in the area compared to NYC/East Coast cities.

If a big tournament were ever to come to Dunne, it would almost need to be leveled and redesigned. But the land needed is there though.

Harding Park is a good example which I thought of, but figured they were well aligned with the PGA and in Olympic's home town.