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Ross Waldorf

Thanks, George. Frankly I hope I can see it again myself. Not sure if that'll ever happen, which would be a shame.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Come on Bill, me thin skinned on this beautiful Texas 100* day?  Not a chance.  BTW, have I ever told you what a great job Jerry Pate did at Pensecola CC (no, I have not played the course; just being a smart ass  :o  ).

Oh hell, Lou, come see us.  It's a frickin' 100* degree here today too!

Cheers,
Bill

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nice post, Ross. I feel the same way. I will be there in a month and I am really looking forward to it.

BTW, 72 and sunny here in Northwest....
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 02:40:27 PM by Richard Choi »

Matt_Ward

Ross:

Fine post indeed !

Gents:

Many people need to play the Black to really understand what is really THERE. TV does a disservice to a great many courses because certain features don't trasmit well over the tube.

The scale of the Black and the way the holes follow the natural path is one of the more inspiring elements of the Black. You actually make a profound journey through the famed Manetto Hills of Nassau / Suffolk counties. The greensites -- despite being vanilla in roughly six locations, are far from elementary in the other instances. You also have elevated targets and having a laser-like sense of how far to hit the ball and on what line makes a huge difference when playing there. If all the greens at BB had the tenacity and terror of the 15th the pros would struggle even more so than many did through a very fair and often times generous set-up of BB this past week.

As Lou opined the nature of places like WF/W and BB are so completely different -- hard to realize they are the brainchild of the same person. Each of the properties is vastly different and the overall presentation makes for some real pros and cons on what course people see as the better of the two.

There's been a few people who ask why BB got a second US Open so soon after the '02 one. The answer is quite simple ... the USGA makes a boat load of cash from being there. The muni tag is also important for the purposes of real access and the course did hold up well despite huge amounts of H20 (thru 6/23 the amt of rain that has fallen in June in NYC has been 7th for all-time records purposes).

The one element that few really credit with the Black is the the onus is on driving the ball well. Plenty of courses that many favor here on GCA allow almost indifferent to wayward driving and then make it up at the end of the hole. BB reverses that equation -- you need to drive the ball well -- in the proper place and with sufficient distance. One other thing -- I came away with from this year's event -- the 1st at BB is a solid starting hole -- not as demanding as the 1st at Oakmont and WF/W but far more than an e-z automatic par without solid execution.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
BTW, 72 and sunny here in Northwest....

As usual, perfect weather for holding, ..... , say a U. S. Open golf championship. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Garland,

Regarding the enviable weather in the northwest, I am in the camp that believes the nation's open should be widely rotated throughout the country.  Four times in the last eight years in the NYC metro might be a scandal if the association gave a rat's behind about what the rest of its constituency thought.  With the rain, high humidity, and heat it has encountered in the northeast and upper midwest, the weather excuse doesn't hold water.  I suspect that any population center sufficiently large to successfully hold the tournament has a golf course that's "worthy" of our Open.     

Mark Bourgeois

Lou

If the U$GA cared about its purported associate members or the golfing public, they wouldn't allow a telecast larded with so many commercials.  In terms of disrespect towards viewers only the Orange Bowl competes.

But so what? Anybody else past the point of caring?  Longer and longer, narrower and narrower, television coverage stuck on developing "narratives" instead of giving us maximum golf action, the growing use of courses anybody with jing can get on and (in this Era of Gigantism) the only type of course the U$GA can rent.

What used to be "must watch" TV now has me forgetting the US Open was last weekend.  (Went on a three-day backcountry expedition instead.)

Anybody else not bother to watch so much as a shot?

Mark

Phil_the_Author

Mark,

In case you were wondering, since you didn't watch a single shot, Lucas Glover won.  ;D

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
To the last three posters, no loss to BPB or the rest of us.  It is a wonderful course which most people love even with all the obstacles placed by its owners and administrators.  Though I may prefer to play SFGC day to day, BPB is the better course, and probably the best one of Tillie's work that I've played (I fall in Philip's camp on the accredation issue).

Lou D,

Speaking of SFGC, the second hole at BP Black reminded me a bit of the second hole of SFGC. Am I crazy?

Note I have not played Bethpage, so going off of what I saw on TV.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great golf course, very difficult Open telecast, too many hours, wore me out, not exciting til the end.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark Bourgeois

Mark,

In case you were wondering, since you didn't watch a single shot, Lucas Glover won.  ;D

Ha!

I found that out yesterday afternoon when the NYT moved a news alert to my Blackberry.  It mentioned something about Mickelson and Duval nearly winning, which sounded interesting.  But I still have not seen a single shot or read any stories so I have no idea how Glover won! I haven't avoided the coverage -- this isn't a protest or anything like that -- it's just a case of LOI.

FWIW I like BPB a lot, although I liked it less after the first "renovation." Haven't played it since the second redo but the pictures actually sadden me.

It's funny, once upon a time the US Open might have been my favorite tournament to watch.  Nicklaus in 1980 really hooked me (so it couldn't have been about the architecture).

But now the order of merit goes:
1. Open
-- gap --
2. Masters
3. US Open

Mark

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark, where do the PGA and Players rank?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill McBride,

Among the principal purposes of this site is frank discussion.  No doubt that I could get invited to play more hard-to-access golf courses if I was to toss some grass in the air and pose my arguments based on the way the wind was blowing.

Scott Warren,

I seldom take anything written on this site as a personal insult, and certainly not in this instance.  People are fully entitled to their opinions and preferences, as I am similarly within my rights to agree or disagree with them.

Sean states "I don't think I have ever seen a course I would like to play less than BPB."  Having played several hundred courses including BPB, I can think of several hundred courses I would like to play less than BPB.  As a result, I must conclude that Sean is either pulling our leg (trying to be provocative), impulsive in his comments, or that he possesses a palate for golf with which I am unfamiliar.  I think that Rich Goodale falls into the first category (trying to be witty), and I have no idea who you are.

Regardless, BPB operates at full capacity.  Whether three non-resident golfers pony up their $100 green fess is not going to make one iota of difference.  If Bethpage was out to maximize revenues, they would play with their fee structure, allow carts on the Black, and give preferential treatment to outside groups.

As to who "loves" the course, perhaps my use of the words "most people" is imprecise and unprovable.  I have no idea who you talk to, but I can't think of a single person that I know who has played the course that wouldn't go out again if the opportunity presented itself DESPITE the hassle it is to play at Bethpage.  Notwithstanding its lofty position in all the major rating services, the fact that the course is operating at capacity might suggest to you that it is highly regarded by "most people".  But as you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion (and I suspect that you have also heard about the similarity of opinions and a certain part of the anatomy).

As to my personal preferences in gca, I think that variety is the spice of life.  I find it totally unnecessary, actually very limiting, to pick one camp and defend it to the death.  If someone can reference the book, chapter, and verse that precludes enjoying both Rustic Canyon or Sand Hills and BPB, please provide it to me.  There is nothing garish in my view with BPB's architecture.  It appears to blend well with its surroundings, and though a bit muscular for most of us, I think it is proportional in most ways.

Sean,

I don't know what you mean by "I don't know which course of all the US Open courses is the best (if that matters at all), but if that term is to be used, I would ask better for who?"  Regardless, I am not one to judge which is the best of US Open courses as I've not played a number of them.  Of those that I have, BPB is certainly one of the best ones from my standpoint, and apparently as well, from that of the players.  I am assuming that the USGA was so quick in returning because the participants, the course, and the community welcomed it.

Lou

My comment about" best" is just that.  I don't know what is best and I never do when it comes to the best courses around, but I do know what sort of course I prefer.  I have walked away from many a course which looks far more interesting than BPB.  I am not interested in difficulty and never have been.  Golf has always been challenging enough for me without narrow fairways, stupidly high rough and loads of carry shots.  What interests me is subtlety, variety and what I call give em enough rope to hang themselves.  I will leave it to you sleep in car parks for a game of golf.  To each is own and long may it be so.  . 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ross Waldorf

I think one of the things that TV does particularly poorly in the case of the Black, is that it fails to capture what actually is beautifully subtle about the place. You have to play it to appreciate, as Matt Ward noted, the really inspired way the course traverses the terrain. And you also have to play it to appreciate how amazing and dramatic the landscape actually is. To me, the closest thing on television that got to the true drama and scale of the Black were the times that you'd look at a player hitting a bunker shot, and the lonely figure of a guy trying to swing a club at a ball was simply dwarfed by the immensity of the hazard around him.

But the "bigness" isn't what finally makes the place so great. The routing is simply a wonder to behold, but you have to play it, and walk across that landscape to get a feel for why it's so wonderful. Tom Huckaby seemed to enjoy my "journey" mode, so let's take a walk from the 4th green down to the 5th tee. You've just walked up a big hill and played one of the great par 5 holes, and now you're looking at this par 4. It's another elevated tee, but it isn't one of those long cart-pathy rides up another hill to get to a downhill shot. The way the land works there allowed Tillinghast to place the 4th green at a high point along a diagonal ridge (which is also what makes the Glacier bunker great, because that's a diagonal hazard, too, so the farther right you want to go, the more bunker you have to carry as you trek up the hill). You walk a short distance down the side of the hill to get to the 5th tee, but it's still a downhill shot into the valley where the fairway sits.

So the tee is oriented subtly toward the tree line on the left side of the hole, with the really dramatic diagonal carry bunker below you, along the right edge of the fairway. It's a cape-ish shot, in that you get to decide how much bunker you want to carry, and the farther right you try to go, the longer it is. Everything is on a diagonal from the tee, the tree line on the left, the bunker, the fairway. But instead of placing the green at the far end of the valley in which the hole sits, Tillinghast routed the hole up the far left side of the valley and onto a ridge that sits atop it. If you actually play the hole, you'll see what a brilliant routing choice this is. It's a one-of-a-kind hole that is extremely difficult, and it makes great use of the movement of the land. You have a hole that really asks you to hit a controlled fade off the tee, and then have to come up with an uphill draw. It's actually quite minimalist, in that everything that makes the hole work comes from the way the hole is positioned on the terrain. The carry bunker really is just a visual assist to help you see what the hole is about.

Now let's get out of US Open mode, and imagine somebody like me playing the hole. Put a 13 or 14 handicap out there. And for God's sake man -- tell them to stay the hell off the back tees! White will do beautifully, thank you very much. I hit my drive, maybe fade it a bit, get it out there in the fairway and I'm feeling pretty damned good. I walk down the hill, enjoy the view, stroll by that fantastic bunker and think about how happy I am to not be in it. Get to my ball, and now I have to hit the fricken ball up that hill. Hopefully, I kept it somewhat right, so the trees don't screw me. But one thing that's nice here -- me the player, not the watcher of the US Open -- is that I know that if I can pull off that long uphill shot, at least I have a fighting chance, because the green is relatively flat, and it's pretty big. And damnit, that makes the course better! I'm just a guy out there challenging a very stern test, and now that I've hit a great power fade that fitted nicely into the diagonal valley, I know that after I hit my brilliant second, I've got a bit of room for error. Believe me, not A LOT of error, but enough for it to feel like Tillinghast cared about my day and not just kicking Sam Snead's ass. That's a good thing in my book.

Lou Duran put it very nicely:

"I guess that I see some of the redemptive qualities in BPB often associated with MacKenzie courses, hitting excellent recoveries to make a par or bogey here and there.  This is entirely different than my impressions of WFW, which though lacking water hazards, was punitive in nearly every way."

I think Sean would actually find much more of the "what interests me is subtlety, variety and what I call give em enough rope to hang themselves," kind of thing than he might think. If you play it from the right tees, you can maneuver around the Black without being tortured. And you'll have a chance to hit some shots that will make you feel great when you leave. And you'll probably hit a few of those kind of shots.

Oh, and one other fast note, because I just can't shut up on this topic. Ah, the Black . . . Anyway -- while I was watching the Open and looking at all those shots from above at all those big, stubbornly round-looking greens, I was thinking that the blimp shots just wreck the feel of the place. Because they make the greens look really dull. Now they are definitely not the most clever, Ballynealesque greens in the world. But for the reasons I mentioned previously, that's a plus when you play the golf course. And believe me, if you walk it and play it, you don't experience the greens from the blimp. You'll see that they do have some interest, and you're happy that the level of interest is about exactly what it is. You want to have a chance to make a few putts, because you play golf to have some fun, right? I mean, after you just hit the two best shots of the day onto the green at say, 10 (and it was fricken HARD to get there, OK?), do you really feel the need to have a double-breaker where you have to aim sideways? Hell, no! Thanks for at least giving me a chance, AW. A tip of the cap to ya, sir.



Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm amazed at how well the course held up given the weather and the amount of play it received.  It will be interesting to see whether the USGA wants the State of New York to soften the 15th green.  The hole location for three of the four days appeared to be in a similar location on the right side of the green.  If it does get softened, I hope it's minimal because it's my favorite green at BB along with #11. 

Now, if they'd only restore Timber Point......

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does anyone believe that Tilly designed those greens with speeds of 13 or 14 ft in mind?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does anyone believe that Tilly designed those greens with speeds of 13 or 14 ft in mind?

I have been thinking that all along when the supporters of Bethpage Black argue how great the greens are (using Sunday's performance as an example).
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Phil_the_Author

No, Tilly did not design the greens with a speed of 13-14 in mind. He did design them with the thought that most shot's would enter the greens hit by longer clubs and with a much lower ball flight and spin rate than today's equipment.

He also designed bigger greens than what are there today and hopefully the expansions of the putting surfaces back out to where they originally were in as many areas as is now possible will continue.