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Michael Dugger

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SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« on: June 22, 2009, 06:40:08 PM »
Okay, guys and gals, this U.S. Open thing......the ripping on BPB for how poorly it drained.....

The cracking on Shinnecock in '04 for how fast and firm it played 

The greens at Olympic Club were too fast

The wind at Pebble Beach was too strong

The rough at such and such.....I've really had enough

There is ZERO effing room in golf for the "fair" word.  Don't even use it, not for a second!!! 

A. All the golfers play the same dang course

B. Mothernature is unpredictable

C. Elements of luck are a part of the game!!!  This is not science, there is no "identifying the best player."  There are only "best score that day/week."

How can a single one of you make a case that something was done poorly, or incorrectly, as far as a course set up goes?

Seems to me aside from a couple of deviations from the norm, no matter how the damn course is set up, the scores are nearly the same.

2009 Lucas Glover  United States Bethpage State Park, Black Course Bethpage, New York[N 1] 276 (-4)
2008 Tiger Woods (3)  United States Torrey Pines Golf Course, South Course La Jolla, California[N 2] 283 (−1)
2005 Michael Campbell  New Zealand Pinehurst Resort, Course No. 2 Pinehurst, North Carolina 280 (E)
2004 Retief Goosen (2)  South Africa Shinnecock Hills Golf Club Shinnecock Hills, New York 276 (−4)
2002 Tiger Woods (2)  United States Bethpage State Park, Black Course Bethpage, New York[N 1] 277 (−3)
2001 Retief Goosen  South Africa Southern Hills Country Club Tulsa, Oklahoma 276 (−4)
1999 Payne Stewart (2)  United States Pinehurst Resort, Course No. 2 Pinehurst, North Carolina 279 (−1)
1998 Lee Janzen (2)  United States Olympic Club, Lake Course San Francisco, California[N 3] 280 (E)
1997 Ernie Els (2)  South Africa Congressional Country Club, Blue Course Bethesda, Maryland 276 (−4)
1996 Steve Jones  United States Oakland Hills Country Club, South Course Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 278 (−2)
1995 Corey Pavin  United States Shinnecock Hills Golf Club Shinnecock Hills, New York 280 (E)










What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Joe Hancock

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »
Would some discussion be OK if it started with "I would have enjoyed watching the Open more if...."

You know, as if to express an opinion or something.....

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Michael Dugger

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 07:33:19 PM »
Joe,

Since when did we have to "send out an evite" in order for folks to offer up an opinion around here...

What would have made the open more enjoyable for you? 

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 07:39:02 PM »
Michael - I was there wed-today. I sat in the rain, ran from the rain, walked in the mud, ruined clothes and everything. This is was the 3rd time I have been to a US Open, and it was absolutely my favorite tournament/open experience! Everyone I talked to in the stands and everyone I went with (5 different people) had a great time as well!



Joe Hancock

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 07:42:46 PM »
Well, my point was more to address that while some people THINK BPB drains poorly, or that Shinnethingy was TOO fast and firm or that the greens at Olympia Fields (assuming this is where you meant),.....they're merely opinions. We eaxh have preferences, and that usually takes what we would prefer to play and correlates with what we would prefer to watch.

I'd LOVE to see an Open played on a course with canted fairways that are very firm and have no rough to keep these guys from finding the trouble...whatever that might happen to be.

I'd love to see an Open played where the NORMAL maintenance methodology is towards minimal irrigation input(think Fishers Island), vs. courses that are typically maintained to LOOK like they're going to be on national TV(think everything the Pro's play in the US).

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Chip Gaskins

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 07:58:51 PM »
Michael -

I totally agree with all you state (rub of the green, drainage, rough height, etc) except for two points...

1) 5 Iron off the tee and 9 iron to the 18th hole of a Major doesn't seem right.  Is it the smart play, or course, but should it even be an option.  Can anyone ever EVER think of that as an option.  Inverness nor Olympic is that short of an iron off the tee.

2) The 7th green at Shinnecock a few years back was simply wrong.  Having three groups play under unplayable conditions and then letting the rest of the field play after watering that green is simply wrong and not fair to those that played it under different conditions.  That was not mother nature, that was the USGA and not everyone in the field had to deal with it.  If some gets wet and soft because of a downpour and whole course softens then that is one thing...when one green gets it is another.

With all that said, I think today was good golf except for 18, either make it truly drivable with risk/reward or play it back where the bunkers are in play to some extent.

Good for Duval and Phil and really good for Lucas Glover, hats off!

Carl Nichols

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 08:46:08 PM »
Michael:
Since this is a forum about golf course architecture, since course setups directly affect how courses are played, and since the U.S. Open is arguably the tournament played on the best set of U.S. courses, I can see why discussing course setups -- like the placement of the tee and green on 18 -- should be off-limits here.  Perhaps we should be discussing something more relevant, like whose outfit I'd be less likely to be caught dead in:  Mickelson's (the "Boston Brave") or Barnes's (the "Train Conductor"). 

PS:  Has anyone actually said anything about unfairness at BPB?

PPS:  Taken to their logical extreme, your two statements that "A. All the golfers play the same dang course," and "there is no "identifying the best player."  There are only "best score that day/week,"" would mean that it doesn't matter what kind of course you play on, so long as everyone plays the same course.

Jeff Doerr

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 09:22:49 PM »
Somewhat on/off  topic:

Everyone talks about the majors indentifying the greatest golfers...

2009 Lucas Glover  United States Bethpage State Park, Black Course Bethpage, New York[N 1] 276 (-4)
2005 Michael Campbell  New Zealand Pinehurst Resort, Course No. 2 Pinehurst, North Carolina 280 (E)
1998 Lee Janzen (2)  United States Olympic Club, Lake Course San Francisco, California[N 3] 280 (E)
1996 Steve Jones  United States Oakland Hills Country Club, South Course Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 278 (−2)
1995 Corey Pavin  United States Shinnecock Hills Golf Club Shinnecock Hills, New York 280 (E)

Hopefully Lucas will not be on this list when people think about this in years to come.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 09:40:41 PM »
Or this list:
Tom Creavy, Olin Dutra, Walter Burkemo, Chick Harbert, Herman Keiser, IBFinch, Todd Hamilton, Paul Lawrie, Ben Curtis, Bill Rogers
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matt_Ward

Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 10:05:40 PM »
Guys, just a thought on this year's US Open -- the concept of a short par-4, that can be driven is a smart idea and a great counterpoint to the muscle type holes you see at BB.

The issue is that you can't just move the markers up and then use the eixsting hole and say it's a fine finishing hole. The risk element was not something that was worth considering. A major change at BB's 18th is called for and with that you would have a world class short ending hole that would really add so much more to the course and to the manner by which the round draws to a close.

PThomas

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 10:14:44 PM »
Somewhat on/off  topic:

Everyone talks about the majors indentifying the greatest golfers...

2009 Lucas Glover  United States Bethpage State Park, Black Course Bethpage, New York[N 1] 276 (-4)
2005 Michael Campbell  New Zealand Pinehurst Resort, Course No. 2 Pinehurst, North Carolina 280 (E)
1998 Lee Janzen (2)  United States Olympic Club, Lake Course San Francisco, California[N 3] 280 (E)
1996 Steve Jones  United States Oakland Hills Country Club, South Course Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 278 (−2)
1995 Corey Pavin  United States Shinnecock Hills Golf Club Shinnecock Hills, New York 280 (E)

Hopefully Lucas will not be on this list when people think about this in years to come.


i dont think Corey belongs in your group Jeff..he did win 14 times on tour
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

BVince

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 10:22:12 PM »
Or Lee Janzen with 8 victories including 2 US Open titles...he is no slouch
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Chip Gaskins

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 10:32:10 PM »
Ian Baker Finch won 16 times around the world including the Open Championship...no slouch either.

I agree with Matt...if the 18th is a risk - reward setup then make it that way.  The 18th today was not that.  It was as laughable as Tiger made Doral #18 look that day he hit 3 iron, 3 iron, wedge....NOT the way the hole was intended.  Yes, it COULD be played that way, but not what the GCA had in mind. (caveat Tilly didn't have all those bunkers off the tee in the original design, so I suppose my argument doesn't hold much weight ::)

Michael Dugger

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 04:04:49 AM »
They do a fabulous job with the set up each and every year

The golfer who golfs best over those four rounds always wins

is there more to it than that, guys???
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Rich Goodale

Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 04:28:56 AM »
They do a fabulous job with the set up each and every year

Now THAT is insane......... ;)

jeffwarne

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 08:48:03 AM »
Well, my point was more to address that while some people THINK BPB drains poorly, or that Shinnethingy was TOO fast and firm or that the greens at Olympia Fields (assuming this is where you meant),.....they're merely opinions. We eaxh have preferences, and that usually takes what we would prefer to play and correlates with what we would prefer to watch.

I'd LOVE to see an Open played on a course with canted fairways that are very firm and have no rough to keep these guys from finding the trouble...whatever that might happen to be.

I'd love to see an Open played where the NORMAL maintenance methodology is towards minimal irrigation input(think Fishers Island), vs. courses that are typically maintained to LOOK like they're going to be on national TV(think everything the Pro's play in the US).

Joe

By the time the Open was announced and "prepped", they'd have Fisher's Island bastardized too(with a state of the art irrigation system of course)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 09:58:32 AM »
Guys, just a thought on this year's US Open -- the concept of a short par-4, that can be driven is a smart idea and a great counterpoint to the muscle type holes you see at BB.

The issue is that you can't just move the markers up and then use the eixsting hole and say it's a fine finishing hole. The risk element was not something that was worth considering. A major change at BB's 18th is called for and with that you would have a world class short ending hole that would really add so much more to the course and to the manner by which the round draws to a close.

Anyone have a picture of a dead horse that they can photoshop to add a picture of Matt beating it? Would be great here and for his Black Mesa commentary.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don_Mahaffey

Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 10:10:42 AM »
Michael,
It's the way it is in golf.
Go into any grill room after any tournament and you'll find a group of guys here and there who are just having fun and you'll almost always find another group who will have all kinds of valuable input about how the course could have been better, or the set-up better, or the pairings better...

For whatever reason, in golf, I think we have a higher % of whiners than in other sports. Too many experts and not enough guys who just want to play the game. And it's too bad because playing in a competition and dealing with all the variables that goes with it, weather, course conditions, partners, is where the fun truly is and so many players can never get to that point.
Yes, I'm a bit jaded as I've been through it so many times (not an Open, but plenty of events) and I've seen it so much. The guys that love the competition and the challenge are so fun to hang out with because they get it...and the whiners will poison your mind if you listen to them.

Carl Nichols

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 10:17:54 AM »
Michael,
It's the way it is in golf.
Go into any grill room after any tournament and you'll find a group of guys here and there who are just having fun and you'll almost always find another group who will have all kinds of valuable input about how the course could have been better, or the set-up better, or the pairings better...

For whatever reason, in golf, I think we have a higher % of whiners than in other sports. Too many experts and not enough guys who just want to play the game. And it's too bad because playing in a competition and dealing with all the variables that goes with it, weather, course conditions, partners, is where the fun truly is and so many players can never get to that point.
Yes, I'm a bit jaded as I've been through it so many times (not an Open, but plenty of events) and I've seen it so much. The guys that love the competition and the challenge are so fun to hang out with because they get it...and the whiners will poison your mind if you listen to them.


Don:
I agree!  But I haven't seen anyone on here actually whining about BPB, or calling it "unfair."  It seems to me that talking about whether 18 at BPB is a good, bad, or indifferent hole is a far cry from whining -- and is exactly the kind of discussion you'd expect on a site about golf course architecture. 

Phil McDade

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 10:44:50 AM »

How can a single one of you make a case that something was done poorly, or incorrectly, as far as a course set up goes?


Michael:

I'll track a crack at it (assuming I might be one of the YOU's referred to in the thread.....)

I think the Black is an Open-worthy course. But I don't think it's among the top tier of US Open courses -- to me, it has some weaknesses, and isn't quite the US Open course that Oakmont, Winged Foot and Shinnecock are.

I like the ying and yang of the course -- some very tough holes are mixed in with holes that can be attacked, and yield birdies and even the occasional eagle. Some holes (4, 5, 15 come immediately to mind) really appear to use interesting playing angles and varied terrain to great effect -- a real test of shotmaking. And they are visually striking. But others, like 16, look less so, with long drives and approaches over flattish terrain. Challenging, sure, just not exhilirating or cause for thinking on the tee. I'm hesitant to criticize the greens, as green contours and tilts are very hard to pick up on the flat TV screen. But I think it's fair to say the greens at the Black (15 a notable exception) hold less interest than those of Oakmont and WF in particular. And I'd argue today's players, given their length, along with ball and club technology, demand that US Open courses have really challenging greens, with the real possibility of three-putts (Miller commented that the greens at the Black were difficult if not impossible to three-putt, given their lack of contour. I'll concede the rain denuded them to some extent, but I'd argue the point remains -- the Black's greens are not in a class of many other US Open sites.)

I continue to argue the Black's set-up for this Open deserves some scrutiny. The course yielded 46 sub-par rounds the first two days, several 64s, 65s, and 66s, and a record-low 36-hole score -- most of those shot by golfers hardly among the elite of today's game. Not scrutinizing and asking questions about the Black and its set-up, in my view, is a disservice to this Discussion Board, which at its best always questions conventional wisdom about golf architecture. The knee-jerk reaction of many of the Black's defenders on this board suggests such scrutiny may have struck a chord, and there have been some dispassionate posters (who, unlike me, have played the Black and observed first-hand this Open) who have similarly questioned aspects of the course set-up. Many who defend the Black blame the rain exclusively for the low scores posted the first two days; I'd argue the soft conditions could have been overcome those two days with a tougher set-up, and questioned whether Mike Davis' philosophy of a more benign set-up was more vulnerable to low scores with the possibility of rain and soft conditions.

As for particulars about the set-up:

-- A par 5 characterized by many who have played and defended the Black as one of the game's great par 5s -- the 4th -- was effectively neutered for this tournament, yielding four times as many birdies/eagles as bogies/doubles, largely by moving the tees up. (Hole average for four days: 4.753) If, as many have suggest, the Black's greatness really begins on the 4th hole, shouldn't that hole be a tougher test than the 4th was for this Open?

-- The short, downhill par 3 14th had a final-round pin position set at under 130 yards (a wedge) to a portion of a green that was -- what -- five yards by five yards? Is that really what a back-nine par 3 in the final round at the US Open should be about? It had "gimmicky" written all over it.

-- The final hole in the final round at the Black led to the winner pulling out a 6-iron, then a 9-iron, to win the tournament. The 18th has been discussed in mulitple threads here; I'll just stand by my previous view that that's hardly a worthy test for the final hole of a US Open.

In short, as one interested in the architecure of major-championship golf courses, I like the Black. But it's not a top-tier US Open course, from where I sit.





« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 01:21:34 PM by Phil McDade »

Lou_Duran

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 11:04:52 AM »
Right on brother Don.  Try managing a retirement oriented golf course sometime (maybe you did in Bend).

We should be blessed to play a BPB with its flat greens and underwhelming finishing hole.  Put Don in charge of things with no public officials getting in the way, and I would move there in a NY minute.

It is probably unfair to base an opinion on just two visits to Bethpage, but both times I was in a group where one of our players came within inches of getting into fist fights.  I don't know if it is the level of frustration or just agression that results from living in such a crowded, bustling, competitive environment, but my two rounds at Bethpage were hardly relaxing.  I could not imagine holding a Ryder Cup there (as suggested in another thread).

Michael Dugger

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »
They say variety is the spice of life, thus why does every golf tournament have to be the same???

It's one of the reasons I love golf courses, because each has a unique personality, and like people, it changes mood with the weather, the set up, etc.....

We always know there is a chance golfer X can eagle the 18th at Pebble and make up two quick shots.

At Oakmont or Winged Foot, say, we know it's one long hard slog to get a round into the clubhouse.  The 18th on those courses being extremely difficult.

Since Phil thinks I might be picking on him, I'll examine his four bullet points

-- A par 5 characterized by many who have played and defended the Black as one of the game's great par 5s -- the 4th -- was effectively neutered for this tournament, yielding four times as many birdies/eagles as bogies/doubles, largely by moving the tees up. (Hole average for four days: 4.481) If, as many have suggest, the Black's greatness really begins on the 4th hole, shouldn't that hole be a tougher test than the 4th was for this Open?

Why do you equate greatness with a tough test?

-- The short, downhill par 3 14th had a final-round pin position set at under 130 yards (a wedge) to a portion of a green that was -- what -- five yards by five yards? Is that really what a back-nine par 3 in the final round at the US Open should be about? It had "gimmicky" written all over it.

Set up as it was, I think the hole played like one of those where a par really felt like a bogey.  That was a good solid mental trap.  Shouldn't an element of golf be the mental game and not simply the ability to stamp out golf shots like Iron Byron?

-- The final hole in the final round at the Black led to the winner pulling out a 6-iron, then a 9-iron, to win the tournament. The 18th has been discussed in mulitple threads here; I'll just stand by my previous view that that's hardly a worthy test for the final hole of a US Open.

I cannot possibly DISAGREE more here.  For one, the particular club is somewhat arbitrary because guys hit the ball longer than ever now days.  What was once a 3 iron is now a 6 iron, so let's not get into a discussion about technology ruining the game, okay, because we've all been there, done that.

Secondly, didn't everyone hear Johnny Miller say how much he liked this play?  Glover was not going to pull a Van de Velde.  Moreover, we all saw Mickelson gag it at Winged Foot a couple years ago.  With a two shot lead it's absolutely the prudent play, I cannot wrap my head around why it's a negative that we didn't get to watch him hit a driver or three wood or something.

[i}In short, as one interested in the architecure of major-championship golf courses, I like the Black. But it's not a top-tier US Open course, from where I sit.[/i]

Well, I cannot wait to hear what you have to say about Merion and Olympic Club here in a few years, Phil ;D


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Kalen Braley

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 11:43:28 AM »
Michael,

I have to agree whole-heartedly with the last bit of your statement.

It amazes me how few recall how much Mickelson got the royal treatment by pulling out the driver at WFW #18 when bogey was all he need to gurantee at least a spot in the playoff.  Ditto in similar fashion for VdV who only needed a double bogey to win.

So a smart guy like Glover, makes a very safe play, does what he needs to do to get the trophy and now the hole sucks and Glover pussied out?  Even if the hole was playing back, it was still playing downwind so Glover could have hit 3 iron/9 iron to win the thing.  Is 6 iron/9 iron really that much worse than 3 iron/9iron?

Phil McDade

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 11:51:23 AM »
Michael:

-----------------------

-- A par 5 characterized by many who have played and defended the Black as one of the game's great par 5s -- the 4th -- was effectively neutered for this tournament, yielding four times as many birdies/eagles as bogies/doubles, largely by moving the tees up. (Hole average for four days: 4.481) If, as many have suggest, the Black's greatness really begins on the 4th hole, shouldn't that hole be a tougher test than the 4th was for this Open?

Why do you equate greatness with a tough test?

...because the best and toughest par 5 on the course, if not the country, (not my characterization, but others) should really test players in the US Open. The hole played as the easiest one in the tournament.

--------------------------------------

-- The short, downhill par 3 14th had a final-round pin position set at under 130 yards (a wedge) to a portion of a green that was -- what -- five yards by five yards? Is that really what a back-nine par 3 in the final round at the US Open should be about? It had "gimmicky" written all over it.

Set up as it was, I think the hole played like one of those where a par really felt like a bogey.  That was a good solid mental trap.  Shouldn't an element of golf be the mental game and not simply the ability to stamp out golf shots like Iron Byron?

--------------------------------------------

...Because a downhill wedge shot is not that taxing, compared to other par 3s in the US Open of note, like the 10th at WF or Oakmont's 8th. Di anyone really, truly struggle with this hole on Sunday?

-----------------------------------------

-- The final hole in the final round at the Black led to the winner pulling out a 6-iron, then a 9-iron, to win the tournament. The 18th has been discussed in mulitple threads here; I'll just stand by my previous view that that's hardly a worthy test for the final hole of a US Open.

I cannot possibly DISAGREE more here.  For one, the particular club is somewhat arbitrary because guys hit the ball longer than ever now days.  What was once a 3 iron is now a 6 iron, so let's not get into a discussion about technology ruining the game, okay, because we've all been there, done that.

Secondly, didn't everyone hear Johnny Miller say how much he liked this play?  Glover was not going to pull a Van de Velde.  Moreover, we all saw Mickelson gag it at Winged Foot a couple years ago.  With a two shot lead it's absolutely the prudent play, I cannot wrap my head around why it's a negative that we didn't get to watch him hit a driver or three wood or something.

-------------------------------

...Miller's analysis was correct; it was a smart play. Smart, dull, boring, hardly challenging, and unworthy of the final hole of the US Open, esp. compared to the likes of closing holes at WF, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Oakland Hills...

I look forward to the Opens at Olympic and esp. Merion. I hope in particular the greens at Merion aren't altered as the Open approaches.


Michael Dugger

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Re: SOME OF YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE OVER THE U.S. OPEN!!!
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 11:53:38 AM »
Kalen,

At the same time, I am a proponent of a strong finish.  I do believe a golf course ought to send you away with a good taste in your mouth, right up to the very last green.

A lot has been said about BPB 18, and I don't really want to rehash it.  

I kinda wonder, though, what makes a "strong finish."  With the distances these guys hit the ball now days (just about everyone hit the 600 yd 13th in two shots) what type of hole truly tests professionals?  

They hit long irons as pure as short ones

With the amount of moisture on the course there was zero worry of a ball not stopping and shooting through a fairway or green.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--