354 - Elevated Green - Fronting Rough

[Greg Tallman]

I am lost. I cannot identify a single positive of setting up the final hole of a US Open in this manner. I dod not get to watch the telecast. Did anyone try to at least get in a front bunker? Or did must hit middle iron - short iron?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I am lost. I cannot identify a single positive of setting up the final hole of a US Open in this manner. I dod not get to watch the telecast. Did anyone try to at least get in a front bunker? Or did must hit middle iron - short iron?

Most hit driver to 40-50 yards short and played wedge from there.  The front hole location made the hole.

[Anthony Butler]

I am lost. I cannot identify a single positive of setting up the final hole of a US Open in this manner. I dod not get to watch the telecast. Did anyone try to at least get in a front bunker? Or did must hit middle iron - short iron?

How many people birdied this 354yd hole when they needed one to put the pressure on Glover? Does that count as a positive? To the USGA, I bet  it does.

Given the fact it plays at its full length as a ho-hum 411 yd par 4 I thought it was a genius move.

[JLahrman]

Not sure if this article has already been posted, but based on Geoff Shackleford's column it appears that the positive of setting up 18 in this manner is that the landing area was not a swamp:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/localknowledge/2009/06/on-the-bright-side-of-this-mes.html

[Phil McDade]

Shoot, Shivas beat me to the punch; only slightly less Mickey Mouse in my book than the goofy pin on 14.

I think the main thing about 18 today was the pin position -- unlike the short par 4 at Torrey Pines, you obviously couldn't reach the 18th green at the Black, or feed a ball close to it. The Torrey Pines short par 4 played as a true half-par hole, while the Black's was negated by the front pin position and the severe uphill run-up to the green (and the rough). Most everyone put their ball 15 feet or more past the pin, and faced a birdie putt.

For the US Open winner, leading on the 18th tee, to execute a 6-iron/9-iron -- which Miller praised as the epitome of genius (??) -- was a huge letdown after some pretty exciting play that occured on the back nine. I give the USGA and Davis some credit for trying to make something interesting out of a pig's ear of a hole, but today's set-up wasn't it.

[Greg Tallman]

Not sure if this article has already been posted, but based on Geoff Shackleford's column it appears that the positive of setting up 18 in this manner is that the landing area was not a swamp:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/localknowledge/2009/06/on-the-bright-side-of-this-mes.html

The only plausible answer to the setup in my mind. Thank you.

[Anthony Butler]

For the US Open winner, leading on the 18th tee, to execute a 6-iron/9-iron -- which Miller praised as the epitome of genius (??) -- was a huge letdown after some pretty exciting play that occured on the back nine. I give the USGA and Davis some credit for trying to make something interesting out of a pig's ear of a hole, but today's set-up wasn't it.

It was more about how Barnes, Mickelson, Duval played the hole while playing catch up.

It would have been more exciting it Glover had a one shot lead, granted.... but to have the best distance (110-130yds) to get close to the front hole location with a full wedge/sand wedge, you would have to place your tee shot right between the bunkers. Since that was the low point of the fairway, the USGA probably wanted to make that option as unappealing as possible. It must have worked, since I can't recall anyone having a full sandwedge into 18 in the last 4 groups.

[Tim Gavrich]

I thought is was okay...not wonderful but not Mickey-Mouse.  It looked like there was another tee box further down the hill.  If they had played the hole at 310 or so, I think it might have been better, with some guys giving it a real try off the tee.

[Greg Tallman]

I am lost. I cannot identify a single positive of setting up the final hole of a US Open in this manner. I dod not get to watch the telecast. Did anyone try to at least get in a front bunker? Or did must hit middle iron - short iron?

Most hit driver to 40-50 yards short and played wedge from there.  The front hole location made the hole.

The front hole location made the setup a failure in my mind. The guy from 160 had nearly as good a shot at getting close as the guy who bombs it down the middle. A MORE accesible pin location would have given those who played more agressively from the tee a better opportunity and perhaps forces a differrent play from the leader? Certainly had the margin been a single shot that would have been the case.

[John Moore II]

OK, I'll say it..I thought it was Mickey Mouse nonsense.

Shiv you thought the whole course was Mickey Mouse after it didn't take a bashing like your precious Olympia Fields did. Get over it.

[Chip Gaskins]

I am reading the headlines now....

After a long, majestic 6 iron off the tee, Glover steps up to a daunting hard 9 iron second shot.  US OPEN???  6 iron, 9 iron, really?

Don't get me wrong, I love short par 4s (I would probably stop playing golf is all par 4s were like #15) but 6 iron, 9 iron?

[John Moore II]

It didn't take a bashing?

I loved the way they "protected par" by denting up the greens with footprints so nobody could make a putt on the weekend.

Look, I'm not saying that bashing BPB for being easy, just because it was saturated, was fair.  What I'm saying is that the 2003 bashing of OFCC, due to the exact same cause, was unfair.

Well, sorry they treated OFCC unfairly 6 years ago. But please, let it rest man. I think any of us with sense know that Oakmont, Pinehurst #2, Shinnecock or any other course would play easy given this amount of rain. Let the braintrusts in the media say what they want and just ignore it. Perhaps you should start a mass letterwriting campaign to the USGA and try to get the Open back to Olympia.

[Phil McDade]

For the US Open winner, leading on the 18th tee, to execute a 6-iron/9-iron -- which Miller praised as the epitome of genius (??) -- was a huge letdown after some pretty exciting play that occured on the back nine. I give the USGA and Davis some credit for trying to make something interesting out of a pig's ear of a hole, but today's set-up wasn't it.

It was more about how Barnes, Mickelson, Duval played the hole while playing catch up.

It would have been more exciting it Glover had a one shot lead, granted.... but to have the best distance (110-130yds) to get close to the front hole location with a full wedge/sand wedge, you would have to place your tee shot right between the bunkers. Since that was the low point of the fairway, the USGA probably wanted to make that option as unappealing as possible. It must have worked, since I can't recall anyone having a full sandwedge into 18 in the last 4 groups.

Anthony:

Glover effectively did have a one-stroke lead at the end; Barnes was -2, and although it wasn't exactly a match-play situation, he had to assume Barnes would at least have a try at birdie, and he would need par to win. I'm sure Glover was thinking on the tee: What's the best, most assured way I can make par on this hole? I think his strategy was the correct one -- 6 iron/9-iron -- but to me, that's a pretty lame closing hole set-up. Compare it to the 18th at WFoot in '06, which produced much more compelling golf (including a terrific par by the eventual winner).

[Steve Lapper]

It didn't take a bashing?

I loved the way they "protected par" by denting up the greens with footprints so nobody could make a putt on the weekend.

Look, I'm not saying that bashing BPB for being easy, just because it was saturated, was fair.  What I'm saying is that the 2003 bashing of OFCC, due to the exact same cause, was unfair.

Dave,

  No different than what happens over at Medinah...or any other Poa Annua green surface...

  C'mon...you are getting silly again...do I have to get the Ditka voice-over machine working again???

[Shawn Arlia]

I thought it was a fun hole. All the contenders needed birdie and didnt get it. Maybe bombing the ball wasnt the play. When the open goes to Olympic, does anyone complain that the last hole is too short. Maybe no one here likes the hole because Rees Jones redesigned it. I could be wrong. It wouldnt be the first time.

[archie_struthers]

 

I like Tim's idea of playing it from 310  ...if such a tee exists  , then we would have seen some real fireworks !

aloha

[JLahrman]

I like Tim's idea of playing it from 310  ...if such a tee exists  , then we would have seen some real fireworks !

aloha

Maybe although given the fronting rough, the softness, and the cool temperatures and humid air I don't know how many players would have gone for it.

[Steve Lapper]

It didn't take a bashing?

I loved the way they "protected par" by denting up the greens with footprints so nobody could make a putt on the weekend.

Look, I'm not saying that bashing BPB for being easy, just because it was saturated, was fair.  What I'm saying is that the 2003 bashing of OFCC, due to the exact same cause, was unfair.

Dave,

  No different than what happens over at Medinah...or any other Poa Annua green surface...

  C'mon...you are getting silly again...do I have to get the Ditka voice-over machine working again???

So Steve, are you denying that the greens were bumpy and slow as hell on Sunday and Monday and that that was the only real defense to the golf course?  It's hard to tell from your diversionary focus on Medinah...

I wasn't there, but a good friend was one of the tending super's working with Craig for the event. Spoke with him last night and he did admit that they were working their asses off to try to get them rolling quicker.

 I wouldn't ever deny that Poa greens turn bumpy, slower and less consistent after inches of incessant rain, little wind, and plenty of foot traffic. Would be the same at Pebble, Winged Foot, Southern Hills, Torrey, Shinny and even that forest named Medinah

   Simple test for you.. Go to the fridge and get two Dos Equis shortnecks. Leave one sip and pour the rest on the patch of well worn 30yr old berber by your feet (in front of the recliner...or use your neighbors astroturf-constructed yard). Have your dog lie there for a bit...kick (gently!!) your dog a bit, enough to get him to reposition himself...drink those sips...then try to putt on it Let me know how it goes for you!!!

[Bill_McBride]

Shoot, Shivas beat me to the punch; only slightly less Mickey Mouse in my book than the goofy pin on 14.

I think the main thing about 18 today was the pin position -- unlike the short par 4 at Torrey Pines, you obviously couldn't reach the 18th green at the Black, or feed a ball close to it. The Torrey Pines short par 4 played as a true half-par hole, while the Black's was negated by the front pin position and the severe uphill run-up to the green (and the rough). Most everyone put their ball 15 feet or more past the pin, and faced a birdie putt.

For the US Open winner, leading on the 18th tee, to execute a 6-iron/9-iron -- which Miller praised as the epitome of genius (??) -- was a huge letdown after some pretty exciting play that occured on the back nine. I give the USGA and Davis some credit for trying to make something interesting out of a pig's ear of a hole, but today's set-up wasn't it.

Phil, if Jean van de Velde had hit 6-iron, 9-iron, 9-iron at Carnoustie, everyone would be calling him a genius today instead of a buffoon.  Lucas Glover had the same two shot lead and played the hole very intelligently.  He could have won with 3 putts after Barnes missed his birdie putt.  Lucas is the only one I saw who hit 6-iron off that 18th tee, most were suckered into hitting drivers.

[George Pazin]

The most interesting thing about the hole to me is that, in spite of damn near everyone having less than 75 yards in, no one stuck it close and made birdie (at least among the top 10 or so on the leaderboard).

Thought experiment: Would the hole have played any differently without fronting rough?

[Joe Hancock]

George,

I think the end result would be the same, rough or no. If it was tightly mowed grass, with the potential for a lengthy roll back off the front, the approach is still better erring to the long side.

Just one thought,

Joe

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

how many other straightforward 355 yard holes do you know that would have yielded no birdies from the final groups?  i thought it was pretty interesting to see those guys blow it 10-20 yards past the pin despite only having flip lob wedge in...  

[Matthew Rose]

I'll go against the grain here and say it was a work of genius.

Nobody who needed to make birdie knew how to play the hole. We saw guys hit it as close to the green as they could, and fail. We saw guys try to lay back somewhat, but also fail.

I liked that in order to have a full shot, the players had to bring the bunkers into play or otherwise hit a 50 yard shot. The pros HATE that shot, because they can't spin it. The front pin just made it more diabolical.

Call me crazy, but I thought it was a great way to make a mundane hole somewhat interesting.

Is it really that different from, say, Olympic or Inverness' finishers?

[Phil McDade]

Shoot, Shivas beat me to the punch; only slightly less Mickey Mouse in my book than the goofy pin on 14.

I think the main thing about 18 today was the pin position -- unlike the short par 4 at Torrey Pines, you obviously couldn't reach the 18th green at the Black, or feed a ball close to it. The Torrey Pines short par 4 played as a true half-par hole, while the Black's was negated by the front pin position and the severe uphill run-up to the green (and the rough). Most everyone put their ball 15 feet or more past the pin, and faced a birdie putt.

For the US Open winner, leading on the 18th tee, to execute a 6-iron/9-iron -- which Miller praised as the epitome of genius (??) -- was a huge letdown after some pretty exciting play that occured on the back nine. I give the USGA and Davis some credit for trying to make something interesting out of a pig's ear of a hole, but today's set-up wasn't it.

Phil, if Jean van de Velde had hit 6-iron, 9-iron, 6-iron at Carnoustie, everyone would be calling him a genius today instead of a buffoon.  Lucas Glover had the same two shot lead and played the hole very intelligently.  He could have won with 3 putts after Barnes missed his birdie putt.  Lucas is the only one I saw who hit 6-iron off that 18th tee, most were suckered into hitting drivers.

Bill:

Van de Velde had a three-stroke lead on the 18th tee at Carnoustie, not two shots (effectively one shot for Glover, given that he was playing with the only guy on the course who could get to -3), and was facing a much longer hole than Glover -- one more than 100 yards longer than what Glover faced. And, in his defense, vdV argued he had hit driver there all previous holes, and had been hitting his driver well the entire day. He also caught perhaps the worse break in modern major history when his second shot didn't stay in the grandstand, but bounced out. Still, he did play the hole with little thought for how much danger there is on that hole.

There is little danger on the 18th at the Black if you can go at it with a 6-iron and then 9-iron. Miller commented that the greens at the Black -- save for perhaps the 15th -- were nearly impossible to three-putt. I think Glover played the hole smartly; I just think the hole and its last-day set-up was a big let-down after a morning of pretty interesting golf with good and bad shots.

[jeffwarne]

OK, I'll say it..I thought it was Mickey Mouse nonsense.

I liked the hole better today than at 411, but it sucks both ways.
Shame because at 411 they have the real estate to make an interesting hole by recontouring the fairway and eliminating the ACRES of redundant bunkers and fescue on both sides.
How about a wider fairway with a bunker(or two) to challenge in order to get a shorter shot in?-
maybe angle the green from right to left and have a bunker protecting access to a reasonable fairway neck/area that is located on the left
At 411 you currently lay up short of the bottleneck (everyone hit to the same spot) and then hit a mid-iron

BTW-if I ever had the lead in a US Open-I'd want to be able to play.... 6 iron----9 iron
(although he did he to challenge the divots of the previous 3 days layups )