O/T Rules Question - Ricky Barnes on 10

[Tom Huckaby]

As do I.

HOWEVER... with no one really watching, it wouldn't be all that hard to do.  In fact think about it.. if it was really buried in the rough, you'd have to try pretty hard TO replicate the lie.  Hell I hate being suspsicious but where there's smoke there is usually fire, and people have listed "smoke" in Ricky's past.  Hey as I've said, he's from Stockton so relative local boy so I do not want to believe it... but man there is at least some suspicion.

In any case I don't think he'd actively try to IMPROVE his lie... but more not try so hard to replicate the horrible one... so to speak.

[Sean Leary]

As do I.

HOWEVER... with no one really watching, it wouldn't be all that hard to do.  In fact think about it.. if it was really buried in the rough, you'd have to try pretty hard TO replicate the lie.  Hell I hate being suspsicious but where there's smoke there is usually fire, and people have listed "smoke" in Ricky's past.  Hey as I've said, he's from Stockton so relative local boy so I do not want to believe it... but man there is at least some suspicion.

In any case I don't think he'd actively try to IMPROVE his lie... but more not try so hard to replicate the horrible one... so to speak.

But he knows the camera is right there.

What do you think about the Kenny Perry situation that came up a little bit ago? Do you think he was improving his lie? I do not.

[Tom Huckaby]

The camera wasn't right there at all.  They showed him from pretty far away.  Again, if there was a will, there surely was a way.

And I didn't see the Kenny Perry situation enough to comment.

In the end, I most definitely give these guys all a huge benefit of the doubt, always.  There's just too much to be lost by fudging on the rules in any way.

Blame shivas for making me suspicious here.

 

[Rich Goodale]

I think Rich is referring correctly to a different incident where Clarke was a participant, though not the key participant. DLIII, playing in the Sunday singles against Clarke, hit a shot into the rough and it was near a sprinkler head. Many, including the announcers IIRC, felt DLIII would find a way to take a stance where he would be afforded relief, which could have put him in the fairway. He did not, chose to play the ball as it lie (lay? I can never remember that one), and the US captain made a point of saying how proud he was that Davis followed both the letter and spirit of the rule (paraphrasing).

Thanks, George for putting me right.  I was getting close, but we aren't playing horseshoes on here, or are we....?

I think I'm right that Clarke intentonally whiffed his 4-footer to make sure that the match was a draw, but only he knows for sure.

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

In relation to Barnes replacing his ball, is there any evidence whatsoever that he gained an improved lie to that he had the night before?  Obviously it would have been better if the USGA official had done his job and observed the replacement but it sounds like people are drawing the conclusion that, because it wasn't observed and because Barnes was somehat cavalier wrt practice swings improving a lie we should assume that he cheated by failing to properly recreate his lie.  That's a logical jump I'm very uncomfortable with.

[Tom Huckaby]

As are we all.  That's why nobody is saying he cheated. 

Agreed.  I remain very uncomfortable with all of it, and I am not saying he cheated either.

I will say, however, this adds to the "smoke" for Ricky.  He best be VERY VERY VERY careful going forward.

TH

[JohnV]

Up until now, I've stayed out of all this because I didn't get to see any of it.  A couple of things:

1) There were two officials assigned to the last group.  One was Jim Vernon, President of the USGA, who was in the same Rules Workshop I was in and we were on the same team for one of the discussion sessions.  He knows the rules and what to do.  I don't know who the other official was as I didn't see him.

2) We are told not to hover too much with players at the Open.  We are there as a resource, not a monitor sitting on the player's shoulder.

Remember, at a normal tour event with 6 or 7 PGA Tour officials on the course fiddling with their air horns, nobody would be watching what Rickey Barnes or any of the other 59 players on the course did on the restart.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:  many thanks for the input - that helps a lot.

So Mr. Vernon and his compatriot followed proper procedure, didn't hover, and relied upon Ricky's honor to do the re-drop correctly?

That to me is how it should be.  This should continue to be a game of honor, not one where policing is required.

I just want to make sure I have that correct - do I?

Tom H.

[Sean_A]

We all have to remember that USGA officials are not referees or umpires.  They are an expert resource on the rules.  It isn't their job to sit on players.  Its the players' job to monitor his own play and if in doubt consult with a rules official. 

Ciao

[JohnV]

JV:  many thanks for the input - that helps a lot.

So Mr. Vernon and his compatriot followed proper procedure, didn't hover, and relied upon Ricky's honor to do the re-drop correctly?

That to me is how it should be.  This should continue to be a game of honor, not one where policing is required.

I just want to make sure I have that correct - do I?

Tom H.

Replace, not re-drop.  Otherwise ok.

Sean,  Actually they are referees as defined in the Rules of Golf, although with some powers limited (can't declare GUR).  As referees, it is there job to call a player if they see him violate a rule, but as you said, not to sit on the players.

[Sean_A]

JV:  many thanks for the input - that helps a lot.

So Mr. Vernon and his compatriot followed proper procedure, didn't hover, and relied upon Ricky's honor to do the re-drop correctly?

That to me is how it should be.  This should continue to be a game of honor, not one where policing is required.

I just want to make sure I have that correct - do I?

Tom H.

Replace, not re-drop.  Otherwise ok.

Sean,  Actually they are referees as defined in the Rules of Golf, although with some powers limited (can't declare GUR).  As referees, it is there job to call a player if they see him violate a rule, but as you said, not to sit on the players.

John

They aren't refs in the normal sense of the word other than they are neutral.  They don't call the "game".  Sure, they call penalties if seen, but so should all competitors so this isn't like a proper ref.  It is more and more coming to the point where these officials are being turned into refs.  Its to the point where players don't want to "officiate" their own games and instead rely on officials.  Its even gotten so bad where many on this site think the officials/system is at fault when a player doesn't deal with his card properly.  If we are gonna go this far down the line we may just as well bail on the player and hire refs to sit on players.  This seems to be what many want in the pro game. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

So,

I guess all the talk about refeeres being there to protect to the field isn't really true then?

In my mind, I'm trying to balance the spirit/tradition of the game where everyone self polices vs the modern day realities of the professional game where millions, careers, livelyhoods, sponsorships are at stake. 

I'm not accusing anyone of being a cheater, but no doubt rules violations do occur and I woulnd't put it past human nature for players to bend/twist/take advantage where they can, especially if its someone like Ricky Barnes who has everything in the world to gain by winning the thing.  Off the course these guys do every last thing they can when it comes to balls, shafts, launch angles, club types, etc, etc, to get any little advantage.  Is it really a stretch to think they would not do the same on the course?

Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I don't see anything wrong with keeping a close eye and doing due diliegence before things get out of hand like what happened to baseball with steriod use.

Just sayin'   

[JohnV]

Sean,
I agree with your statement, I was just pointing that they are referees under the Rules of Golf in case anyone else took your meaning of referee to be that one.

Kalen,
Yes they are there to protect the field by ruling on things they see or are reported to them, but that doesn't mean that they have to be standing there watching every move every player makes.  When I walked with the groups at the US Open at Oakmont, I was watching them from a distance and available if they asked for help.  That is what we are told to do.

In the case of a player who has a ball in deep rough when play is suspended, I might have gone over to make sure he knew what to do (and keep an eye on things  ).

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:  many thanks for the input - that helps a lot.

So Mr. Vernon and his compatriot followed proper procedure, didn't hover, and relied upon Ricky's honor to do the re-drop correctly?

That to me is how it should be.  This should continue to be a game of honor, not one where policing is required.

I just want to make sure I have that correct - do I?

Tom H.

Replace, not re-drop.  Otherwise ok.

Sean,  Actually they are referees as defined in the Rules of Golf, although with some powers limited (can't declare GUR).  As referees, it is there job to call a player if they see him violate a rule, but as you said, not to sit on the players.

JV - it's horrible use of terminology like that that is the reason I should NEVER be a rules official.
 

But thanks!

And I am with you on all of this.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Poor Rick Barnes. No one saw any evidence of him cheating, and one of you even made some accusations about what you "saw" him do, only to find out that you exagerrated what you saw. We even have a purported account (probably second or third hand) of his cheating in a college match.

You guys are impugning this man's reputation. Of course, you will all say that you aren't and you'll offer up some academic reason why the discussion is valid, but in the end you are potentially damaging his reputation and by extension, his career.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

Read the entire thread if you care to.  I have great concern about Ricky's reputation and most definitely know how this can go.

I am not ashamed of what I have posted.  I am asking questions far more than making any judgments.  Perhaps I have given more credence to claims from amateur times than such might be worth, but I tend to take people at their words here.

Yours is a very fair assessment in any case.  But I do feel no shame.  Believe me I am the first to feel such when it is deserved.

TH

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Jim -- If by "college match" you are referring to my comment, then you need to go back and read it again.  The incident happened in the televised US Am semi-finals, and Miller (and colleagues) discussed the issue on-air.  As far as we know, Ricky has never been actually penalized duing play.  Perhaps it is merely coincidence that his name has come up so often despite only being prominently featured in only a handful of televised golf tournaments.  In any event, he'd be wise to use more caution on such matters in the future...