O/T Rules Question - Ricky Barnes on 10

[Alan Carter]

Alan,
You (or for that matter anyone else on this site) are 'no one of any consequence' because you weren't there in any rules capacity, and the people that were saw nothing worth penalizing.  

You misinterpret what I said, and that gets you miffed enough to tell me to 'settle down'. Just think how miffed Barnes would be if he knew that you, and others who think like you, are calling him a cheater.

Jim, I never called him a cheater.  In order to be a cheater I believe that you would have to know that you were doing something wrong deliberately and I don't think he thought he was doing anything wrong.  I just think he took a little to far and managed to help his situation a little more than say "fairly taking your stance" amd strategically moving a branch into a more favourable situation.  Nothing more.

[Dave_Miller]

Let's see how he replicates the horrendous lie in the heather this morning on the second hole. I didn't see any rules official over there checking it out before he as quickly as possible marked the location of the ball and walked in wihtout even consulting with his playing partner as to whether to finish the hole.

As for the 10th yesterday - it certainly looked like his many practice swings got closer and closer to his actual ball - no question a lot of hay was removed by the swings he was taking.

David before he marked that ball he would have spoken with the USGA Official assigned to his group so that the official would know what the lie looked like.  Under the resumption of play rule and procedures he is required to place the ball on the spot.  Believe me when I say the Rules Official would have been there when he did replace the ball.  I know because as a Rules Official I have been in that situation and have even used a cell phone camera to take a picture of the lie.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Jim_Kennedy]

"There is no question in my mind that he went to great lengths to improve his lie."

"He could not have made that good of contact if he would have just walked in and hit that shot."

"There is no question that he made the shot a lot easier before he hit it". 

"He could not have made that good of contact if he would have just walked in and hit that shot."

"I don't care what the USGA just said!"

"There is no question that he made the shot a lot easier before he hit it." 

"I've gone back and looked at it and in my mind there is no question that he improved the area of his intended swing."

Alan,
The above quotes are found in your replies on this thread.
Barnes has played the game too long to not know the rules.
You can believe you aren't calling him a cheater.

[mike_beene]

Remember a few years ago on the European tour a golfer did not mark but left his ball out(not sure why) but the next day someone had greatly improved it.Instead of plying a long club to the green,the golfer hit a layup because that is all his old lie would have given.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Remember a few years ago on the European tour a golfer did not mark but left his ball out(not sure why) but the next day someone had greatly improved it.Instead of plying a long club to the green,the golfer hit a layup because that is all his old lie would have given.

If it's the same situation I'm thinking of that was Darren Clarke at the Irish Open.  He left the ball lying in heavy rough and when he went back the following day the rough around the ball had all been trampled down.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm pretty sure it was Darren Clarke (vs. Davis Love III) in the Ryder Cup (Oakland Hills?).

[Niall C]

actually Rich, I think that it was at the Irish Open and Clarke was making a point to Monty after his debacle in Asia.

[Andrew Mitchell]

actually Rich, I think that it was at the Irish Open and Clarke was making a point to Monty after his debacle in Asia.

That's probably scuppered Darren's chance of getting a Captain's pick in 2010 then

[Lou_Duran]

Aren't we a cynical bunch.  Why is it that we don't apply the same level of scrutiny to the politicians who don our stripes or athletes or architects we favor?  I know of no other endeavor where the participants are more ethical and well-behaved.

[Rich Goodale]

actually Rich, I think that it was at the Irish Open and Clarke was making a point to Monty after his debacle in Asia.

I've tried to google it and I think what I was remembering was the singles at RC 2004 between Clarke and Love where on the 18th Clarke found a terrible lie in the rough to the left but with a chance for a drop due to a sprinkler head in the his stance.  He chose to play it as it lay.  They halved the 18th in bogey, and I think that Love purposefully whiffed a 5 footer to allow that to happen in homage to Clarke's sportsmanship.

But, I could be wrong as I am not Pat Mucci.......

[Tom Huckaby]

TO SHIVAS:

These are serious allegations, even made on a silly forum like this.  There is NOTHING worse than having this stigma.

SO.....

Shivas are you SURE about this:

I did not see a USGA official examine his lie before he picked up and marked on Sunday night.

When Barnes replaced his ball on Monday morning, there was no USGA official there to examine the lie of the replaced ball.

Given what our rules officials in here have stated, that seems UNFATHOMABLE to me.  There's an official with each group.. you're telling me the one with the FINAL GROUP IN THE US-FREAKIN' OPEN didn't check Barnes' lie either time?

Please confirm.  I didn't see it in either case... and I will trust you if you do confirm you saw this with your own eyes.. but man that just seems unbelievable to me.

BTW I also didn't see the "quick hand" on 18 you mention... please explain that.  What exactly did he do?

TH

ps - Ricky's a CA boy - from Stockton - so I want to give him every benefit of the doubt.  If he was from Chicago, then let him burn.  

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Since this has become a hot topic, I'll expand on my recollection of a similar issue with Barnes in the semis of the US Am in the year he went on to win.  He was playing Bill Haas (I went to Wake so I was very biased on the outcome), and continually matted down the grass behind his ball in the rough before hitting it.  Johnny Miller commented several times about it, and I think Fay even came in to discuss as well.  I seem to remember that they concluded that, since it was match play, the opponent (or the player himself) would have to call the infraction and that never happened.  I know a bunch of Wake fans were complaining about it, but alas Barnes went on to make a comeback and win the match.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Well-explained, many thanks.  And my apologies, I should have known that you would not make these accusations lightly.

So regarding #2... well... I am gonna give Ricky the benefit of the doubt.  YOU didn't see an official check the lie on Sunday night, but that does not mean it didn't happen.  I have to believe it did.  It's just too important NOT to.  Then Monday morning, well... I am gonna choose to believe the official checked the area before Ricky got there to make sure the grass/tee markers hadn't changed, then just watched Ricky place from afar.  That would have been enough.

Now re 18, that is WEIRD.  The smoke is indeed thickening... added to Jay's post above.... hmmmmmmmmm....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, to be honest, after what Dave Miller wrote, I sort of expected to see a guy in USGA attire get close to the ball and check the lie when Barnes replaced his ball on #2.  But nobody did.  I then quickly looked at the folks standing around and I can assure you that there was nobody within 10 feet or so.  So the real question is whether the USGA official was even one of those folks within 10 feet or whether he wasn't even watching at all.  I still have it on Tivo, so I'll stop it and check.

Either way, Barnes is at a minimum highly reckless.  Let's just say that.  3 eyebrow-raisers in 24 hours is a LOT.

That works, makes great sense.  Well said.



Oh Ricky you're so fine can't you understand
you're looking like a cheater with that ball in your hand
Oh Ricky come on man don't be a game delayer
any more of this crap and you're rep's like Gary Player....

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - don't get me wrong - I am with you on this now.  You have explained it all perfectly.  There is a lot of smoke here for sure.. that's why I lapsed into song... it bums me out and my reaction is humor.

Hey, I laughed at myself.

 

[Rich Goodale]

Regardless of what an obvously great golfer Rick Barnes is, am I the only one who think he dresses like an extra in "Bruno"?

[Tom Huckaby]

Regardless of what an obvously great golfer Rick Barnes is, am I the only one who think he dresses like an extra in "Bruno"?

No, you are far from alone there.  Much ado was made among my friends about his Super-Mario cap, for example.
Phil wasn't much better all week.. oh where has golf fashion gone?

 

[Kalen Braley]

Regardless of what an obvously great golfer Rick Barnes is, am I the only one who think he dresses like an extra in "Bruno"?

Yeah,

Whats up with the that and the painters hat has go to go. Was it the US Open, or the Abercrombie & Fitch Open sponsored by Gap and American Eagle outfitters?   

[Niall C]

actually Rich, I think that it was at the Irish Open and Clarke was making a point to Monty after his debacle in Asia.

I've tried to google it and I think what I was remembering was the singles at RC 2004 between Clarke and Love where on the 18th Clarke found a terrible lie in the rough to the left but with a chance for a drop due to a sprinkler head in the his stance.  He chose to play it as it lay.  They halved the 18th in bogey, and I think that Love purposefully whiffed a 5 footer to allow that to happen in homage to Clarke's sportsmanship.

But, I could be wrong as I am not Pat Mucci.......

Rich

You will recall the rumpus when Monty failed to replace his ball correctly falling an overnight raindelay. He had marked the ball but the marker was gone in the morning. He proceeded to replace his ball where he thought it had been but tv pictures from the night before showed he had given himself an easier lie.

Many of his fellow pros were not impressed including Clarke.

Later at the Irish Open, Clarke found himself in deep rough when play was stopped. The next day he found that all the graas where his ball had been had been trampled down which would have mean't he would have had a shot to the green. Instead Clarke elected to go out sideways which was what he had planned to do before rain stopped play.

Many commentators suggested that this was a pointed rebuke to Monty.

Niall

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

that gives me yet another reason to like Clarke.  he only stayed a (very) short time at Wake... wish he could have stuck around a while so we could claim him.  not sure college was his cup of tea, however.

[Tom Huckaby]

OK, so he's more or less good on his actions on 18.. but man the ball replacement on 2 remains curious.  Of course, what's curious to me is the inattention of the rules official, not anything Ricky did or didn't do.

Question to you rules guys out there... shouldn't the official have monitored the re-placement? 

[George Pazin]

I think Rich is referring correctly to a different incident where Clarke was a participant, though not the key participant. DLIII, playing in the Sunday singles against Clarke, hit a shot into the rough and it was near a sprinkler head. Many, including the announcers IIRC, felt DLIII would find a way to take a stance where he would be afforded relief, which could have put him in the fairway. He did not, chose to play the ball as it lie (lay? I can never remember that one), and the US captain made a point of saying how proud he was that Davis followed both the letter and spirit of the rule (paraphrasing).

[Steve Pozaric]

actually Rich, I think that it was at the Irish Open and Clarke was making a point to Monty after his debacle in Asia.

I've tried to google it and I think what I was remembering was the singles at RC 2004 between Clarke and Love where on the 18th Clarke found a terrible lie in the rough to the left but with a chance for a drop due to a sprinkler head in the his stance.  He chose to play it as it lay.  They halved the 18th in bogey, and I think that Love purposefully whiffed a 5 footer to allow that to happen in homage to Clarke's sportsmanship.

But, I could be wrong as I am not Pat Mucci.......

George is correct; Love had the lie next to the sprinkler head.
See:  http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf/montgomerie-lands-killer-blow-as-europe-sweep-to-ryder-triumph-755229.html
"Clarke was within a lip-out at the last of claiming his first singles win but to be in a position to halve his contest with Love after being two-down with three to play. Clarke birdied the 16th and the 17th, where he brilliantly chipped in. Love drove into the thick rough left of the 18th fairway and could only reach the green in three.

The American might have got relief from a sprinkler head if he had elected to play a different type of shot than that required and did not seek a free drop. Clarke was on in two but had a long first putt. He put it to four feet and Love gave him an opening by missing his par-effort from six feet on the right lip."

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

EXACTLY.  I have those same questions, and suspicions.

And what sucks is given Ricky has exhibited some "smoke" in previous instances, well... that's what makes the suspicions happen, for me anyway.  If it were Jack Nicklaus (or countless others) would we ask the same questions?

Sucks for Ricky.

[Sean Leary]

Yes, the only curiosity to me is:

1.  The lousy lie Sunday night.

plus

2.  The total inattention of the official Monday morning to the replacement.

plus

3.  The lie Monday morning that was apparently wonderful enough to enable Barnes to knock the ball on the green and basically knocked Johnny Miller over in his chair.

In the last group of the US Open with everyone watching, do you really think he would purposely improve his lie and risk getting caught? I have a hard time believing that.