O/T Rules Question - Ricky Barnes on 10

[Tom Birkert]

From the views I saw it looked like Barnes used his practice swings before his 3rd shot from the hay on 10 to clear a lot of the rubbish from behind and around his ball, effectively giving him a clearer swingpath.

Did anyone else see it and if so would a rules expert care to comment?

[Alan Carter]

I'm not a certified Rules Official, but a PGA member that does enough rulings at his club.  Tom you beat me to writing about this!  

He went from not being able to see the ball or swing at it to an almost a completely unobstructed situation.  Nevermind how many practice swings in the immediate area of the golf ball, how about the repeated grounding of the club behind the ball.  Yes, the ball didn't move, but it certainly gave much easier access to the back of the ball.

There is no question in my mind that he went to great lengths to improve his lie.

I think there might be a few reviews of him hitting that shot.  I can't believe the geniuses in the broadcast booth never said a word.

[Scott Warren]

After letting Kenny Perry off, there isn't a chance in hell they can raise a whimper about that. The horse has bolted.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I just rewound my DVR and watched his practice swings again.  He was to the left of his ball, and on a couple of swings he was left and forward of the ball.  The ball was visible in the first blimp shot shown of the lie, so his grounding did nothing for improving the lie.

[Alan Carter]

Kevin, I agree completely that his practice swings were left of the ball, some of them not by more than a foot.  The shaft of the club was not in any jeopardy of catching grass anywhere in the main hitting area of the shot because of what he did.  He could not have made that good of contact if he would have just walked in and hit that shot.

They just discussed it on air, but I would have liked for them to have shown the area before and after he hit the shot.  There is no question that he made the shot a lot easier before he hit it. 

I don't care what the USGA just said!

Good for Ricky though!

 

[Dave_Miller]

Kevin, I agree completely that his practice swings were left of the ball, some of them not by more than a foot.  The shaft of the club was not in any jeopardy of catching grass anywhere in the main hitting area of the shot because of what he did.  He could not have made that good of contact if he would have just walked in and hit that shot.

They just discussed it on air, but I would have liked for them to have shown the area before and after he hit the shot.  There is no question that he made the shot a lot easier before he hit it. 

I don't care what the USGA just said!

Good for Ricky though!
 

Alan:
As a Rules Official I watched the entire sequence on TV and I don't believe he did anything to improve his lie or area of intended swing.  In addition there is a walking Rules Official with the Group Who was standing there and watched the entire sequence.  The official watching would have called him if it did improve those areas.  All USGA officials are drilled to protect the field and they will.
Best
Dave

[Alan Carter]

Dave, I respect your opinion and the decision of the USGA on this one.  I just don't agree with it.

I've gone back and looked at it and in my mind there is no question that he improved the area of his intended swing.  Different opinions, that's all. 

There is no way he could have just walked up and hit the shot he did.  That means he did something to improve the situation.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

FWIW, Ricky had a similar situation in the US Am Semis when he won.  A lot of people think he mashed down the grass around his ball to substantially improve his lie.  The USGA did not see it that way however.

[Sean Leary]

What I did notice with him was that he took a lot of practice swings VERY close to his ball, all day throughout his round. So perhaps he did help improve the path, but not on purpose and not knowingly.

[Tom Yost]

I don't know if he improved his lie on #10, but he really should get a two stroke penalty for that hat.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Alan Carter,

It seems that no one of any consequence, either in the USGA, any of it's officials, any of the announcers, Barnes' fellow competitiors, etc.,  takes the same position as you and Tom Birkert.

Do you guys feel comfortable calling Barnes a cheater? Are you serious?

edit: excuse me, I missed Jay's rumors and Sean's interpretation that Barnes nearly broke a rule.

[jeffwarne]

I don't know if he improved his lie on #10, but he really should get a two stroke penalty for that hat.

not sure about #10, but I thought he grounded/pounded his club multiple times on 18 in the hay near the green

[Alan Carter]

Alan Carter,

It seems that no one of any consequence, either in the USGA, any of it's officials, any of the announcers, Barnes' fellow competitiors, etc.,  takes the same position as you and Tom Birkert.

Do you guys feel comfortable calling Barnes a cheater? Are you serious?

edit: excuse me, I missed Jay's rumors and Sean's interpretation that Barnes nearly broke a rule.

My apologies Mr. Kennedy if you think that I'm no one of consequence, but all I did did was state my opinion.  Something that I believe that this site was set out to do.  I obviously, by how quickly the USGA jumped onto the telecast, was not the only one that felt he was potentially take it a bit too far with his practice swings in the immediate vicinity of his golf ball.  I simply stated that that I believe that by how he prepared to hit his third shot on the 10th hole created an improved situation by the time he actually struck the ball. 

I was alone in that thinking!  So settle down!

As a bit of an aside, I would love to here what his fellow competitors, off the record, would say about the situation.

[Ken Moum]

As a bit of an aside, I would love to here what his fellow competitors, off the record, would say about the situation.

As a general rule, people who live in glass houses don't throw stones.

Ken

[David Kelly]

It will be interesting to see what kind of a shot Barnes has on #2 tomorrow morning.  His ball looked to be nestled down deep in the high grass.

Is there a procedure for ensuring that a player has as close to the same lie they ended the day with when they resume play?

[Sean Leary]

DK,

I am sure the rules official will help with that.

Mickelson had his playing partners come look at his lie before he put his tees in the ground yesterday because his lie was so good.

[Gary Slatter]

Alan Carter,

It seems that no one of any consequence, either in the USGA, any of it's officials, any of the announcers, Barnes' fellow competitiors, etc.,  takes the same position as you and Tom Birkert.

Do you guys feel comfortable calling Barnes a cheater? Are you serious?

edit: excuse me, I missed Jay's rumors and Sean's interpretation that Barnes nearly broke a rule.


Alan, I nearly fell off the sofa when we were watching Ricky make his practice swings, some were close to the ball but the ones he did ahead of ball and to the side iimproved his chances.  Nothing Weslock wouldn't have done!

My apologies Mr. Kennedy if you think that I'm no one of consequence, but all I did did was state my opinion.  Something that I believe that this site was set out to do.  I obviously, by how quickly the USGA jumped onto the telecast, was not the only one that felt he was potentially take it a bit too far with his practice swings in the immediate vicinity of his golf ball.  I simply stated that that I believe that by how he prepared to hit his third shot on the 10th hole created an improved situation by the time he actually struck the ball. 

I was alone in that thinking!  So settle down!

As a bit of an aside, I would love to here what his fellow competitors, off the record, would say about the situation.

[Gary Slatter]

Alan Carter you are so right on this one - I nearly fell off the sofa watching Ricky make his practice swings, close to the ball, and in various other areas.  Nick Weslock would be so proud.  It worked later too.

[Tom Birkert]

I wasn't calling him a cheater. I asked whether anyone else had seen it and thought - as I did - that he'd improved his swingpath to the ball.

He previously had spent an awful lot of time grounding 2 clubs behind a chip shot just off the edge of an earlier green and did the same on 18 as has been mentioned.

My flatmate plays amateur golf to a very high standard and he had no doubts what Barnes did was wrong, and he would have called it on him in all 3 situations.

On a side note, if he wasn't doing it to improve his swingpath on 10, then why practice so close to the ball? The odds of it actually moving are very high given the length of the grass. I would suggest the prudent thing to do is to move a good few yards away and find a comparable patch of grass. It might be more worth asking why he risked the ball moving if he had no ulterior motives?

[Rich Goodale]

When Ricky finally addressed the ball, I said to the guys I was watching it with who were wondering why it took him so much time, "I guess hiis lie is good enough now..."

[Niall C]

It will be interesting to see what kind of a shot Barnes has on #2 tomorrow morning.  His ball looked to be nestled down deep in the high grass.

Is there a procedure for ensuring that a player has as close to the same lie they ended the day with when they resume play?

Just ask Monty !

[Jay Carstens]

Not sure about this particular circumstance but there's no doubt in my mind it's the most frequently violated rule in the book (improving your lie).

[Jim_Kennedy]

Alan,
You (or for that matter anyone else on this site) are 'no one of any consequence' because you weren't there in any rules capacity, and the people that were saw nothing worth penalizing.  

You misinterpret what I said, and that gets you miffed enough to tell me to 'settle down'. Just think how miffed Barnes would be if he knew that you, and others who think like you, are calling him a cheater.

[David Federman]

Let's see how he replicates the horrendous lie in the heather this morning on the second hole. I didn't see any rules official over there checking it out before he as quickly as possible marked the location of the ball and walked in wihtout even consulting with his playing partner as to whether to finish the hole.

As for the 10th yesterday - it certainly looked like his many practice swings got closer and closer to his actual ball - no question a lot of hay was removed by the swings he was taking.

[James Bennett]

It will be interesting to see what kind of a shot Barnes has on #2 tomorrow morning.  His ball looked to be nestled down deep in the high grass.

Is there a procedure for ensuring that a player has as close to the same lie they ended the day with when they resume play?

David

IIRC, Tony Jacklin was having a great round at St Andrews in 1970 when the weather turned, and his golf started to go north.  Not sure if it was 14 or so when the round was called to a halt, but Jacklin's ball finished in a Gorse bush!  Apparently, the talk of the town was to go out and burn the gorse bush that night.

I think the gorse bush survived, well for a while at least, and Jacklin's run petered out (I think).

I don't know what the procedure was, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a local cop minding the bush for the night.

James B